Zero2Cool
6 years ago

I'm referring more to the whole thing with being "aggressive" in free agency.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann 



Packers signed the number one rated TE and number rated DL (at the time). Also, Packers signed division rival CB to an offer sheet. How is this not aggressive? We were also in talks with several other players too. What the hell do you want? You realize there is a salary cap, right?

I swear, fans just bitch and bitch some more.
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nerdmann
6 years ago

Packers signed the number one rated TE and number rated DL (at the time). Also, Packers signed division rival CB to an offer sheet. How is this not aggressive? We were also in talks with several other players too. What the hell do you want? You realize there is a salary cap, right?

I swear, fans just bitch and bitch some more.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Indeed. My point was, whereas Ted was barely involved in free agency, it seems as if Gute is going a little bit overboard with it, as if to prove that he is the “Anti-Ted.” I hope it works.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Zero2Cool
6 years ago

Indeed. My point was, whereas Ted was barely involved in free agency, it seems as if Gute is going a little bit overboard with it, as if to prove that he is the “Anti-Ted.” I hope it works.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann 



Ahh, I get you now. You think he's signing people to prove he's not Ted Thompson. That would be a mistake. Gotta be your own man, and I do believe that's what he's doing. Otherwise, he would have overspent for someone like Allen Hurns or Allen Robinson or Sammy Watkins and he never would have cut Jordy Nelson, nor would have traded a first round player like Damarious Randall. I don't question his motives behind his moves, but now I see where you're coming from.
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nerdmann
6 years ago

Ahh, I get you now. You think he's signing people to prove he's not Ted Thompson. That would be a mistake. Gotta be your own man, and I do believe that's what he's doing. Otherwise, he would have overspent for someone like Allen Hurns or Allen Robinson or Sammy Watkins and he never would have cut Jordy Nelson, nor would have traded a first round player like Damarious Randall. I don't question his motives behind his moves, but now I see where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Did you see that comment where Murphy said he was “pleased” with Gute’s moves? That very much creeped me out. I mean, is Murphy telling him to make some moves? Are they trying to please Mike or Aaron? Whole thing is just odd. Again, hopefully it will work.

It seems to me that the Patriots and the Eagles have provided the “winning template” that other teams will be copying now. Hopefully we fall within the parameters established by the success of these franchises.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
6 years ago


It's my opinion the Seahawks were a run first offense with a pass dominate TE and he was misused. Apparently I am not alone with that opinion.

The thing about facts, they are kind of like stats, they are often manipulated to blend into the interpreters bias. If you hate the new GM, you will find anything to discredit the new acquisition, like you know that only one player had more receiving TD's than Jimmy Graham in 2017.

You're using third down efficiencies from an offensive coordinator who PASSED the ball on the goalline in the Super Bowl with less than half minute to play when he had MARSHAWN LYNCH getting over 4 yards carry. Maybe if he had that legitimate red zone threat Jimmy Graham, passing would have won the game. ;-)

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



3 Years ago, right here, after Graham’s trade to Hawks in this LINK , I said among other things that:
“and most important Graham sucks…Wolf would[n’t] so much as trade a pubic hair from his left nut for Graham.

In the two years b4 Graham [2008-9] NO averaged 6516 yrds and 6.3 yrds/play. In the 5 years he was playing NO averaged 6596 Yrds and 6.08 yrds/play. Brees played 16 games each year but 2009, when he played 15, the starters were all rested the last game of 2009, so this made stats for 2008-9 look artificially worse…NO racked up 458 yrds [w/o Graham] and their average w/ Graham was 411.”

I point out the folly of your trite sports clichés and you follow them up with more. Seattle didn’t know how to use Graham? Really, who here thinks they’re smarter than Bevell? The freakin’ arrogance. Hawks are run-first? WTF does that mean 😂? You don’t even know what you mean by this crap.

Are you saying if Seattle was Pass-first [whatever the hell that means] Graham would stop his running wrong routes, crap blocking, causing 4 Wilson INTs, etc.? Really? [A true red herring].

From 3 yrs ago we now know Graham wasn’t smart enough to learn Seattle’s route adjustments. On 3rd and long, one would think this is the perfect time to use your TE weapon down the seam to open up the passing game. But, 75% of the time, maybe more, on 3rd and long Graham stays in to “block” and released as a valve near LOS. FYI: this wasn’t because Bevell didn’t know how to use him, it was because Graham was a dumbass like Janis and didn’t know where to go.

Pontificating that facts are being manipulated is another logical fallacy [ad hominem], unless it can be explained. Here’s some more spot-on facts:

In ’14 Seattle was 8th at 43.27% in 3rd down efficiency. In 15’ they get Graham and drop to 19th at 38%. Graham misses last 5 games, they jump to 1st. Next 2 years, with Graham Seattle is poor at 15th and 20th. Same QB, same run-first offense [whatever the eff that means], same OC, in 2015, the exact same players and team gets better when Graham is out.
PackFanWithTwins
6 years ago
With exception of a few physical freaks, red zone threats are a result of play design and QB ability.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Zero2Cool
6 years ago

3 Years ago, right here, after Graham’s trade to Hawks in this LINK , I said among other things that:
“and most important Graham sucks…Wolf would[n’t] so much as trade a pubic hair from his left nut for Graham.

In the two years b4 Graham [2008-9] NO averaged 6516 yrds and 6.3 yrds/play. In the 5 years he was playing NO averaged 6596 Yrds and 6.08 yrds/play. Brees played 16 games each year but 2009, when he played 15, the starters were all rested the last game of 2009, so this made stats for 2008-9 look artificially worse…NO racked up 458 yrds [w/o Graham] and their average w/ Graham was 411.”

I point out the folly of your trite sports clichés and you follow them up with more. Seattle didn’t know how to use Graham? Really, who here thinks they’re smarter than Bevell? The freakin’ arrogance. Hawks are run-first? WTF does that mean 😂? You don’t even know what you mean by this crap.

Are you saying if Seattle was Pass-first [whatever the hell that means] Graham would stop his running wrong routes, crap blocking, causing 4 Wilson INTs, etc.? Really? [A true red herring].

From 3 yrs ago we now know Graham wasn’t smart enough to learn Seattle’s route adjustments. On 3rd and long, one would think this is the perfect time to use your TE weapon down the seam to open up the passing game. But, 75% of the time, maybe more, on 3rd and long Graham stays in to “block” and released as a valve near LOS. FYI: this wasn’t because Bevell didn’t know how to use him, it was because Graham was a dumbass like Janis and didn’t know where to go.

Pontificating that facts are being manipulated is another logical fallacy [ad hominem], unless it can be explained. Here’s some more spot-on facts:

In ’14 Seattle was 8th at 43.27% in 3rd down efficiency. In 15’ they get Graham and drop to 19th at 38%. Graham misses last 5 games, they jump to 1st. Next 2 years, with Graham Seattle is poor at 15th and 20th. Same QB, same run-first offense [whatever the eff that means], same OC, in 2015, the exact same players and team gets better when Graham is out.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



So, are you not excited to see what Aaron Rodgers can do with Jimmy Graham under Mike McCarthy and Joe Philbin's freshly created offense?
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Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
6 years ago

You're grasping at straws on this one Barfan. The Packers pursued Robinson before Graham and likely wouldn't have signed Jimmy if Robinson agreed to terms. So no the Packers "street cred" didn't cause them to lose Robinson or any of the CBs they were rumored to be interested in. Besides Fuller who else did the Packers even make an offer on btw? If there were 20+ surely you have some names. Also if the Packers were overpaying why did the Bears match it?

I think Graham got overpaid by 2-3 million a year but so did alot of players, when you sign players on day 1 of free agency they're almost always overpaid. Considering we had no one at TE and the draft doesn't have alot of immediate starter possibilities I'm fine with the move.

Originally Posted by: isocleas2 



If GB overpaid by $2-3M words like moron and flake would not be attaching to the new GM. You're $7-8M estimate is the money Bennett got. If you compare Benett's '16 juxtaposed against his career to Graham's, $7-8M is ridculous.

Speaking of grasping, you are one of the few that can grasp, so please, indulge this thinking:
Look and think about these 2 PLAYS  at :23 and :54.

At :23, Hawks have ball 2nd and goal at 4. Seattle has 2 TEs left, Graham split wide, 2nd in-line and 2 WRs right. Tenn is in straight man, 4 rushers with a spy on Wilson and a free safety. Guarding Graham on an island is Kevin Byard, a 5-11, 212, 4.46 2nd year, 3rd round safety from Middle Tennessee is starting his 10th game. PFF graded him as high quality in 2017. If Graham is a RZ threat, the young, short Byard presents a solid mismatch. Now watch the safety. With Graham to his right, he is shaded left and on the snap moves left. It was schemed for Byard to cover Graham with ZERO HELP. Result: Graham can’t get separation and pass to him is INC.

At :54 Seattle has ball 1st and Goal at the 8, nothing fancy, just a straight 2x2 with 3 WRs [Baldwin, Richardson, Lockett] and Graham in left slot. Tenn. is in straight man, with a 4 man rush, MLB spying on Wilson and 1 free safety. Rookie LB Jayon Brown has man coverage on Graham.

Jayon Brown is a mid 5th round (#155) rookie playing in his third game. He’s a LB, 5-11, 231 4.70, a productive player in college minus the physical tools typically needed to succeed. His PFF grade for 2017 was POOR.

Why would a TENN DC cover Graham with this guy? This is a dream, unbelievable mismatch, Graham on Jayon Brown. It’s as easy a TD as anyone will ever get in an NFL RZ.

And watch the safety, again! Graham is on his right and he is not shading to Graham; on the snap he breaks left. Result: Graham runs into EZ beaks inside toward the coverage and Wilson anticipating Graham would break away from coverage threw correctly to the outside correctly for an INC. The dopey Graham ran a basic route wrong and if he did this anywhere but the back of EZ, it’s probably an INT.

This is only 2 bad plays, but the point I’m making is that the Titans’ defense showed ZERO respect for Graham’s RZ prowess. The Titans have never played a Seattle team with Graham, they play only once every 4 years. When a team faces an uncommon opponent, the pro scouting department goes to work. They’ve been reviewing the Seattle tape during the summer and focused big time on Seattle weeks 1 and 2 tape. Clearly, the Titans pro scouting department and the Defensive staff decided that they could cover Graham with average to poor cover guys and still NOT need to provide any help whatsoever.

When Titans learned Graham was a FA, their GM asked input from his pro scouting department to ascertain Graham’s worth. I assure you after getting the report that reflected the above referenced coverages, Tennessee would not pay more than a plugged nickel for Graham. And what the Tennessee staff saw, so did the other 31 teams, including Seattle. In 2017, the Eagles, SF, Indy, Htn, Jax, Dallas, Rams, Cards, Giants, Washington, and Atl all played Graham the same way. 13 of 13 scouting departments would all be reporting to their GM, “Buy low on Jimmy.”

13 of 13 scouting departments do not think Graham is a receiving threat. And unlike 99% of normal FAs, Graham’s weaknesses are so glaring THEY COST GAMES! Even if he gets 1200 yards receiving; he not as valuable as a TE that gets 300 yards but plays well for 600 snaps. Graham is just such a tool. Just look at the 4 INTs he caused. Don’t you remember the fun made of him when he played us? Play 1 Blanketed by Dix; Play2, House blows up Graham on outside run and makes tackle for -3; and Play 3, Graham doubles Perry, Perry pushes thru Graham for a sack easier than Mike Bennett pushed thru that 66 year old paraplegic. Juxtaposed to Marty Bennett on our 1st TD.After a Seattle turnover at 3, their defense was on side line jumping around whipping themselves into a frenzy to stop us. Monty ran behind Bennett, who pushed their defensive end 4 yards into EZ; that is how a 7.5M TE plays . NFL teams just don’t give 30M/3yr deals to softies like Graham.

Wilkerson had 98 pressures in 2015, arguably the best season ever by a DLman. He’s been an average player in ’16 and ’17 and all he gets is 1 yr $5M w/ incentives. And DLmen make A LOT more than TEs. The best deal Graham was going to ever get was near min plus incentives; but if that’s what GB offered he’s not coming to GB. If GB thought they could do something with him and paid an extra $2-3M, the street would be more understanding.
Cheesey
6 years ago
Anyone can take a handful of plays to “prove” that a player sucks, or that he’s the GREATEST player ever.
You could even do that with Jerry Rice. Or show the game film of Barry Sanders (sorry Kevin!) when the Packers held him to -1 yard in a game, to say he “sucked” as a running back.

To have to do that to somehow “prove” your superior intelligence over other posters here is lame in my view.

All you have is your opinion. It’s no more correct at this point then any other poster here. Only time will show if you are some psychic or not.
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Zero2Cool
6 years ago

Anyone can take a handful of plays to “prove” that a player sucks, or that he’s the GREATEST player ever.
You could even do that with Jerry Rice. Or show the game film of Barry Sanders (sorry Kevin!) when the Packers held him to -1 yard in a game, to say he “sucked” as a running back.

To have to do that to somehow “prove” your superior intelligence over other posters here is lame in my view.

All you have is your opinion. It’s no more correct at this point then any other poster here. Only time will show if you are some psychic or not.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



Hey now, even in that game his moves were beautiful! 🙂
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packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the totals are accurate..nrvrtmind
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Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : Packers vs Lions game doesn't seem so bad.
beast (18-Nov) : Dennis Green "They are what we thought they were, and we let them off the hook!"
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : comment of the day Z2Cool "Bears better than we want to admit. Packers worse than we think. It's facts."
Mucky Tundra (17-Nov) : my worst case scenario: Bears fix their oline and get a coach like Johnson from the Lions and his scheme
Zero2Cool (17-Nov) : Bears get OL fixed amd we might have a problem
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beast (17-Nov) : That's great news and Packers need to keep upgrading their OL, DL and DBs this off-season, so missing one guy doesn't kill them
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beast (17-Nov) : How so? (I didn't watch)
Zero2Cool (17-Nov) : Badgers got hosed vs Oregon
packerfanoutwest (16-Nov) : damn,he hasn't played since week 2
Mucky Tundra (15-Nov) : poor guy can't catch a break
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Zero2Cool (15-Nov) : MarShawn Lloyd has appendicitis according to Matt LaFleur.
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