mi_keys
10 years ago

How many times do I need to say the cap is projected to be over 150 million in 2 seasons? Next year it's set for another 10 million jump. We have 13.6 availabe right now. The cap isn't our enemy and wouldn't be if we signed Graham especially with some of those guys on that list potentially leaving.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 


Ol' Ed Werder obviously wasn't accounting for the salary cap rise. I do, however, agree that both Cobb and Nelson would not get extensions THIS season. One of them would have to wait until next off season when cap is purged and or cap goes up for new league year. Not a big deal...Randall and his people may choose to wait until after the season anyway.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Touching on your commentary regarding salary cap, someone else has already posted that's not a guaranteed number; but let's say that's exactly what it expands to over the next 2 years. You do realize that as the cap goes up, so too will all contracts from high end to low end. Every time we have to resign someone else or approach a free agent or sign a rookie, those deals are going to get more expensive too.

Supposedly, the Saints offered $9.5M/year to Jimmy Graham. I have a hard time seeing them not match $10M to keep him. If multiple teams are interested, I would not be surprised to see him get $12M+ per year. In the context of what I've said above, that contract values will trend upwards, $12M won't be outlandish for a top receiving threat, but it will still be one of the top dollar deals. You can only pay so many players top dollar.

Cobb is currently only about a $1M cap hit. Jordy is only just under $4.4M. To extend them both, we're probably talking about upwards of $11-15M additional cap per year. We'd be closing in on $30M+ for our top 3 receiving targets. Even at $150M cap, if it does actually go that high (again, that's not guaranteed), that's 20%+ of the total cap space for just those 3 players. $30M on just those 3 players would also be more than any other team paid the entirety of their combined wide receiver and tight end groups (roughly 8-9 players each) (Seattle was at roughly $29M with a lot of that tied up in overpaying Zach Miller and Sidney Rice at about $20M between the two of them; more on Seattle in a minute). With the other bodies we'd have to pay to fill out wide receivers 3-5 and 2-3 backup tight ends, we could be talking 25%+ of our cap tied up in just the wide receiver and tight end positions.

Meanwhile we have Aaron Rodgers at roughly $20M cap hit per year, Clay Matthews at $11M this year accelerating to $15M cap hit by 2017. Now you're talking about $60-$65M for just 5 players.

Sam Shields is at $5M this year, $6.3M next and then jumps to just over $12M each of the last two years. So two years from now you're talking about $77M for 6 players. That's over half the cap, even at $150M.

Julius Peppers contract accelerates significantly after this year, jumping from $3M to $12M and then $10.5M. We can cut him at virtually no cost, but then we need someone else to step up as the pass rusher opposite Matthews.

The currently scheduled 2015 free agents are:
[list]
  • Jordy Nelson
  • Randall Cobb
  • Jarrett Boykin (restricted)
  • Ryan Taylor
  • Bryan Bulaga
  • Derek Sherrod
  • Don Barclay
  • Scott Tolzein
  • BJ Raji
  • Letroy Guion
  • Jamari Lattimore
  • Tramon Williams
  • Jarrett Bush
  • Davon House
  • Sean Richardson
  • [/list]

    That's currently our top 3 wide receivers, 3 of our 4 top offensive tackles, just to look on the offensive side of the ball. You're not going to pay any less than what we currently are for our offensive tackles; not if you want starter quality. We need Bulaga to step up and fully realize the potential he indicated in his first two years. If he does, we're going to pay him. If he doesn't, we desperately need to find someone who can and we'll likely have to pay for that player. Offensive line has been far and away our biggest weakness on offense. It needs to be addressed and we will have a harder time doing that if all of our cap space is tied up in receving threats.

    Bottom line: if we go for Graham and get him in here, we're going to have to either let Jordy or Cobb go or there's going to be a lot of bodies cut and I don't think we can fill all the other holes if we do that.

    References:
    http://overthecap.com/offensebreakdown.php?Year=2013 
    spotrac.com for individual players

    Born and bred a cheesehead
    play2win
    10 years ago

    I'm disappointed with this reply... tell Schefter, Werder, Florio, Nate Davis, etc. how preposterous this is. It would be nice to debate but if you can't debate...insult. I'll try making GIF's in the future so you can see the links I post to avoid future issues with confusing what I'm trying to say to you and have you misreply.

    Oh, and I have enjoyed this topic a great deal...it's an interesting one. A few more days and these kind of discussions won't be necessary.

    Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



    Really. I could care less what you think. You are one of the more blatantly passive aggressive, crazy assed posters in this forum. I do my best to back up my arguments, and search out info as thoroughly as i am able given the time I have. Others here know this. If I see blatant BS, I have no problem calling it out as BS. Most of what you have offered here in this forum is BS.

    play2win
    10 years ago

    Touching on your commentary regarding salary cap, someone else has already posted that's not a guaranteed number; but let's say that's exactly what it expands to over the next 2 years. You do realize that as the cap goes up, so too will all contracts from high end to low end. Every time we have to resign someone else or approach a free agent or sign a rookie, those deals are going to get more expensive too.

    Supposedly, the Saints offered $9.5M/year to Jimmy Graham. I have a hard time seeing them not match $10M to keep him. If multiple teams are interested, I would not be surprised to see him get $12M+ per year. In the context of what I've said above, that contract values will trend upwards, $12M won't be outlandish for a top receiving threat, but it will still be one of the top dollar deals. You can only pay so many players top dollar.

    Cobb is currently only about a $1M cap hit. Jordy is only just under $4.4M. To extend them both, we're probably talking about upwards of $11-15M additional cap per year. We'd be closing in on $30M+ for our top 3 receiving targets. Even at $150M cap, if it does actually go that high (again, that's not guaranteed), that's 20%+ of the total cap space for just those 3 players. $30M on just those 3 players would also be more than any other team paid the entirety of their combined wide receiver and tight end groups (roughly 8-9 players each) (Seattle was at roughly $29M with a lot of that tied up in overpaying Zach Miller and Sidney Rice at about $20M between the two of them; more on Seattle in a minute). With the other bodies we'd have to pay to fill out wide receivers 3-5 and 2-3 backup tight ends, we could be talking 25%+ of our cap tied up in just the wide receiver and tight end positions.

    Meanwhile we have Aaron Rodgers at roughly $20M cap hit per year, Clay Matthews at $11M this year accelerating to $15M cap hit by 2017. Now you're talking about $60-$65M for just 5 players.

    Sam Shields is at $5M this year, $6.3M next and then jumps to just over $12M each of the last two years. So two years from now you're talking about $77M for 6 players. That's over half the cap, even at $150M.

    Julius Peppers contract accelerates significantly after this year, jumping from $3M to $12M and then $10.5M. We can cut him at virtually no cost, but then we need someone else to step up as the pass rusher opposite Matthews.

    The currently scheduled 2015 free agents are:
    [list]

  • Jordy Nelson
  • Randall Cobb
  • Jarrett Boykin (restricted)
  • Ryan Taylor
  • Bryan Bulaga
  • Derek Sherrod
  • Don Barclay
  • Scott Tolzein
  • BJ Raji
  • Letroy Guion
  • Jamari Lattimore
  • Tramon Williams
  • Jarrett Bush
  • Davon House
  • Sean Richardson
  • [/list]

    That's currently our top 3 wide receivers, 3 of our 4 top offensive tackles, just to look on the offensive side of the ball. You're not going to pay any less than what we currently are for our offensive tackles; not if you want starter quality. We need Bulaga to step up and fully realize the potential he indicated in his first two years. If he does, we're going to pay him. If he doesn't, we desperately need to find someone who can and we'll likely have to pay for that player. Offensive line has been far and away our biggest weakness on offense. It needs to be addressed and we will have a harder time doing that if all of our cap space is tied up in receving threats.

    Bottom line: if we go for Graham and get him in here, we're going to have to either let Jordy or Cobb go or there's going to be a lot of bodies cut and I don't think we can fill all the other holes if we do that.

    References:
    http://overthecap.com/offensebreakdown.php?Year=2013 
    spotrac.com for individual players

    Originally Posted by: mi_keys 



    yeah, but we can cut our starting Cb, our starting MLB, our starting ILB, our backup ILB, and our starting RT!

    steveishere
    10 years ago
    So you don't have anything where someone actually said they don't think GB will have a good offense next year? and nothing reliable that the Packers actually have looked into acquiring Graham just opinionated suggestions and your own opinions on the suggestions. Sorry that's not very convincing especially since in none of the things you posted did those guys suggest that GB NEEDS to make the move or that they won't be good if they don't (that only came from you).
    steveishere
    10 years ago
    What matters though is that I am really not convinced why we should essentially give up Cobb and two 1sts for Jimmy Graham. I don't really see that as a gain.
    uffda udfa
    10 years ago
    Ugh, I typed out another long winded StarrMax favorite and hit the wrong button and it's gone...

    I'll go brief. Yes, I understand the cap. I also understand some cap will be purged through release and or restructuring. There are lots of ways to manipulate the cap.

    When it comes to non financial considerations... people are too hung up on TWO 1st rounders. In essence, it's ONE first rounder as Graham is one heckuva guy to land with a 1st round pick. A proven superstar with unique skills... a freak like Julius Peppers but Graham is in his prime. Would you cough a second 1 for him? I can understand those who may not but they are the gambler types even though they may think of themselves as the conservative Packer way types. Odds do not favor getting a player like Jimmy in next two 1st rounds.

    When it comes to the money... there is almost always a way.

    BTW, if New Orleans leaves the tag on and it passes the 15th, the first team that offers this deal is the only one in play. Graham will either be with the team that made the offer or the Saints. If New Orleans pulls the tag, then all 31 teams can wheel and deal.

    It's too bad I couched the initial discussion in terms of simply the franchise tag and it's requirement of 2 1st's. I wonder how people would feel if it was a 1st and 2 3rd's like the Jared Allen deal from a few years back with Minnesota. I will remain dimly hopeful that this miracle play by Ted Thompson can happen. I realize it's odds are long but I think Graham would be better in Green bay than he is in New Orleans.
    UserPostedImage
    Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


    mi_keys
    10 years ago

    The GREAT teams go out and add things... Seattle kept adding last year Avril, Bennett...did they really need to trade for Harvin? No.



    I also wanted to revisit this piece from an earlier post since I mentioned Seattle above.

    If you want to bring them up in how they've built their team you have to look first and foremost to how they drafted. The entire legion of boom was drafted in 2010 and 2011 (Richard Sherman, Brandon Browner, Walter Thurmond, Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas). All of their linebackers that were major contributors, were drafted between 2010 and 2012. Cliff Avril ($7.5M/year average) and Chris Clemons (~$6M/year average, couldn't find a direct source). Clemons was a journeyman before signing with Seattle. Cliff was one of the higher rated free agents that year, but when other top pass rushers are making $10M - $15M a years, $7.5M/year is a far cry from making him the top paid player at his position.

    On offense, Sidney Rice was a big trade that did nothing for them last year. Zach Miller was another free agency move they made giving him $6.8M a year for 5 years in 2011. I think that was top 5 for tight ends at the time. Rice has since been cut and resigned to a 1 year deal and Miller just took a big pay cut.

    The Lynch trade was a 4th and conditional 6th that I believe became a 5th. Lynch at the time was relegated to third string in Buffalo behind CJ Spillar and Fred Jackson. His production had dropped off considerably and he was averaging less than 4 yards per carry.

    Throw in two journeymen offensive lineman in Paul McQuistan and Breno Giacomini, and the rest of the contributors were drafted by Seattle.

    So excuse me if I don't buy the semblance between Seattle and your argument for shelling out top dollar and 2 first round picks for a player when Seattle's two most aggressive moves, Sidney Rice and Zach Miller, were their worst moves. Rice didn't contribute last year and Miller has turned out to be an above average tight end.

    By my count 9 of 11 starters on defense were drafted, with 1 high level free agent and 1 previous journeyman. On offense you have 7 of 11 starters drafted with 1 trade for a former first round pick who had fallen off to be third string, 2 journeymen free agent lineman and 1 priority free agent who hadn't lived up to his contract but was still an above average player.
    Born and bred a cheesehead
    uffda udfa
    10 years ago

    Really. I could care less what you think. You are one of the more blatantly passive aggressive, crazy assed posters in this forum. I do my best to back up my arguments, and search out info as thoroughly as i am able given the time I have. Others here know this. If I see blatant BS, I have no problem calling it out as BS. Most of what you have offered here in this forum is BS.

    Originally Posted by: play2win 



    Thank you for the compliment. =d> Again, with the labels and insults. I'm not the one stating 2nd round rookies are the better than Sharpe, or Lyerla and Rodgers are better than Finley already. I also click on links and look into what people say before I reply. I don't continually saying things that are in error when someone has made it simple for me not to.

    Your comment highlighted above tells me you do, in fact, care what I think or you wouldn't have interjected that into your reply.

    I got a smile out of the notion that what I type is BS. Really? You are saying this to me? YOU? We are definitely coming from two very different perspectives. I'm confident in what I type and why I type it. I don't have any concerns about who the receiver of what I type as some might in the way that they just can't wait to try and post something to slam me or "get me"...you like to attempt such things often. I hope you have learned that spending time really thinking about things and researching them, thorougly, is the way to go if you're going to make future attempts.

    Steve... I will invite you, again, to answer why so many are suggesting the Packers as a team that would make this move for Jimmy Graham? Schefter flat out said they should give up the two 1st rounders Why? The answer that you seem to desperately seek from me is within the answer to that question that you haven't answered, either.



    UserPostedImage
    Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


    steveishere
    10 years ago
    I don't know why he said that about Graham you didn't post any explanation. Why didn't they say anything about the GB offense struggling if they don't make that move? I haven't seen a single early power ranking for 2014 that doesn't have GB in the top 10. I guess everyone is really high on the GB defense this year.
    uffda udfa
    10 years ago

    I also wanted to revisit this piece from an earlier post since I mentioned Seattle above.

    If you want to bring them up in how they've built their team you have to look first and foremost to how they drafted. The entire legion of boom was drafted in 2010 and 2011 (Richard Sherman, Brandon Browner, Walter Thurmond, Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas). All of their linebackers that were major contributors, were drafted between 2010 and 2012. Cliff Avril ($7.5M/year average) and Chris Clemons (~$6M/year average, couldn't find a direct source). Clemons was a journeyman before signing with Seattle. Cliff was one of the higher rated free agents that year, but when other top pass rushers are making $10M - $15M a years, $7.5M/year is a far cry from making him the top paid player at his position.

    On offense, Sidney Rice was a big trade that did nothing for them last year. Zach Miller was another free agency move they made giving him $6.8M a year for 5 years in 2011. I think that was top 5 for tight ends at the time. Rice has since been cut and resigned to a 1 year deal and Miller just took a big pay cut.

    The Lynch trade was a 4th and conditional 6th that I believe became a 5th. Lynch at the time was relegated to third string in Buffalo behind CJ Spillar and Fred Jackson. His production had dropped off considerably and he was averaging less than 4 yards per carry.

    Throw in two journeymen offensive lineman in Paul McQuistan and Breno Giacomini, and the rest of the contributors were drafted by Seattle.

    So excuse me if I don't buy the semblance between Seattle and your argument for shelling out top dollar and 2 first round picks for a player when Seattle's two most aggressive moves, Sidney Rice and Zach Miller, were their worst moves. Rice didn't contribute last year and Miller has turned out to be an above average tight end.

    By my count 9 of 11 starters on defense were drafted, with 1 high level free agent and 1 previous journeyman. On offense you have 7 of 11 starters drafted with 1 trade for a former first round pick who had fallen off to be third string, 2 journeymen free agent lineman and 1 priority free agent who hadn't lived up to his contract but was still an above average player.

    Originally Posted by: mi_keys 



    Where do Harvin and Michael Bennett fall in this? I'm not sure why neither was mentioned? It's too bad you had to bring up Marshawn...a guy Rodgers wanted. A guy that made great sense for us. We really missed on that.


    UserPostedImage
    Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


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