Zero2Cool
16 years ago

No I didn't mean that to be assumed. I just expected to give up many more sacks the past few years after losing the interior of our line, while we transitioned. I think our pass protection has been solid, for the most part. Nobody was complaining after week 1. And we've had Wells out and Spitz moved over.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:




I'm not sure who is complaining now. We did a fairly decent job against the Cowboys, running the ball anyhow. We just (my opinion) stopped running it too soon.

Per the passing game. Rodgers was running around a lot, but it wasn't solely because the OL was letting them through. He held onto the ball way too long several times, I thought.

As I have said before. I prefer a power OL over a finesse OL. Just a personal preference.
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zerowley
16 years ago
Sorry if I sounded like I was calling people out; I wasn't trying to. The zone blocking scheme is just heavily misunderstood (again, I blame commentators who try to sound like they know what they're talking about when they don't) and I think that article does a great job pointing out how it differs from typical blocking schemes, as well as pointing out some pros and cons to using it.

About the pass blocking scheme, I was pointing out that the ZBS is definitely utilized in pass protection; it's not just for the running game.
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Rios39
16 years ago

No I didn't mean that to be assumed. I just expected to give up many more sacks the past few years after losing the interior of our line, while we transitioned. I think our pass protection has been solid, for the most part. Nobody was complaining after week 1. And we've had Wells out and Spitz moved over.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:




I'm not sure who is complaining now. We did a fairly decent job against the Cowboys, running the ball anyhow. We just (my opinion) stopped running it too soon.

Per the passing game. Rodgers was running around a lot, but it wasn't solely because the OL was letting them through. He held onto the ball way too long several times, I thought.

As I have said before. I prefer a power OL over a finesse OL. Just a personal preference.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



The whole "Holding the ball too long thing" Is kind of iffy IMO. I can see if he was not throwing the ball to open receivers. But earlier in the game he was hitting quick slants and throws down field. But if they aren't open he can't just throw it anyways lol The line was horrendous after the 1st quarter.
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Pack93z
16 years ago
Here is a piece I posted a long time ago on another board.


For those looking for a definition to the scheme... here you go.. and it will maybe help dispell the illusion that any running back can be successful in the scheme. To me the running back needs to have great vision, decisive decision making, instincts and a decent burst to utilize the scheme.

But Warhawk's point above to me is correct.. you have to have the correct personal to run the scheme, the lineman have to be athletic and be able to make reads at the line. Additionally they have to be able to get out of their stance quickly.

The running game in football used to be pretty simple. The most complex things you would see for line play were some pulling guards to run sweeps or traps. But then several years ago you began to hear the word zone get thrown around more and more frequently (with the likes of Denver, Atlanta and others adopting it... yes us too) until it's about all you hear anymore.

In a general overview this is how a zone should be blocked, but I won't pretend to be an expert, but I will try to explain the basics to simplify things a bit. In the offense you and I grew up in, most of the time the running back had a specific point to try to run through, and the OL tried to create a seam right in that spot. Called man or drive blocking, requires more strength and doesn't require as much agility because everything happens in front of you.

With zone, you don't tell the running back exactly where to go. You direct his first couple of steps, and the point at which he gets the hand-off from the QB, but from there it's his responsibility to find a seam. Hence the "one" cut and go mantra that you hear about from the coaches.

There are a couple different kinds of zone, two of the most common being the inside zone and the zone stretch.

The "inside zone" is more of a downhill attack, and is more likely to produce the cutback lane. The back must be able to read the progress of the play and cut and go.

The "zone stretch" does just what it sounds like - runs more towards the edge, trying to get defensive flow horizontally so a vertical seam can be created, moreso of the drive or man scheme. Big play potential here.

Blocking the zone is where it really helps to have athletic linemen who can move horizontally with decent power and push. In fact, the OL must be able to move horizontally, all while keeping their shoulders square to the line of scrimmage and while engaging the defense. If they open up their shoulders at all, at can create a seam for the defense to get penetration and disrupt the play before it starts.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Greg C.
16 years ago

McCarthy emphasizes that he does not run a pure ZBS, he mixes it up, but it does have a big effect on what kind of players the Packers use. The emphasis is on getting linemen who are more nimble, which usually means sacrificing some strength. The downside is that linemen of this type tend to have problems in pass protection, as they get overpowered at times.

"Since69" wrote:



I sincerely hope this is McCarthy putting his best spin on the personnel moves that Thompson has made. It makes no sense otherwise. Either you zone block or you don't. Either your personnel are nimble enough to zone block or they're bulky enough to push people out of the way. We have to pick a side and stay with it. Offensive linemen don't have time to think. They have to react. What they do in any given situation must be second nature to them. It has to be practiced and repeated until it can be done without thought.

This half-assed "this week you'll be a road grader and next week you'll be throwing yourself at the other guys legs" crap has to stop. McCarthy has preached cohesiveness and consistency since his tenure began and this part-time zone blocking :xcensoredx: isn't going to allow that to happen - especially with young, inexperienced linemen.

"Greg C." wrote:



What McCarthy meant by mixing it up is that it depends on the play. Sometimes the linemen block specific players and sometimes they block in a zone. McCarthy also made the point that this is true of any offense. Your caricature of this ("this week you'll be a road grader and next week you'll be throwing yourself at the other guys' legs") is very misleading.

My main point was that I agree with Zero. I liked the power running scheme better. I think the ZBS is too complicated for its own good. I wonder if McCarthy would've gone with the ZBS if he'd known that Jeff Jagodzinski would get hired on at Boston College after only one year as our offensive coordinator.
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Zero2Cool
16 years ago

The whole "Holding the ball too long thing" Is kind of iffy IMO. I can see if he was not throwing the ball to open receivers. But earlier in the game he was hitting quick slants and throws down field. But if they aren't open he can't just throw it anyways lol The line was horrendous after the 1st quarter.

"Rios39" wrote:



I disagree. QB's are told they have a certain amount of time in the pocket to get rid of the ball. I can't recall the exact number, but I think its like 2.4 seconds or something like that. If they don't see an opening and can't scramble for yards, throw it away instead of taking the sack.

Rodgers held the ball too long and where it worked out great last week, this week it didn't. We can't expect our OL that is small to fend off guys bigger and stronger than them for 5 seconds a play because our WR are covered. He needs to ditch the ball or run for a few yards.

The draw play and some play action pass calls would have been good in the game. I believe anyhow.
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dannychau22
16 years ago
anybody know the status of scott wells??
would be nice to have Clifton-Colledge-Wells-Spitz-Tauscher again
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porky88
16 years ago
The ZBS always takes a while to get going considering you don't practice it much. You can't cut your own guys. Every year the running game takes a while to get going. Eventually it does. I wouldn't worry that much. I think eventually it can get going. GB did run the ball pretty well against Detroit and Minnesota. Certainly not terrible.

The problem is Dallas is a great football team. You had an outstanding front seven going up against an offensive line that has their starting center out, starting guard playing center, and a running-back with a bad hamstring.
longtimefan
16 years ago


Rodgers was sacked five times Sunday night.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



I refuse to judge this O-line while Tony Moll is in there.

"Since69" wrote:



+20
Zero2Cool
16 years ago

The ZBS always takes a while to get going considering you don't practice it much. You can't cut your own guys. Every year the running game takes a while to get going. Eventually it does. I wouldn't worry that much. I think eventually it can get going. GB did run the ball pretty well against Detroit and Minnesota. Certainly not terrible.

The problem is Dallas is a great football team. You had an outstanding front seven going up against an offensive line that has their starting center out, starting guard playing center, and a running-back with a bad hamstring.

"porky88" wrote:




Yep. Very true and good points.


I still prefer to have a power OL. I don't mean to knock one in favor of the other. I just prefer to out power people on the lines. I think it frustrates a team when they get out physicalled. <-- new word?

Not that getting cut doesn't piss off players, cuz ... it does and its funny listening to them whine about it. Vikings?
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Zero2Cool (13h) : 49ers might be down their QB, DL, TE and LT?
packerfanoutwest (22-Nov) : Jaire Alexander says he has a torn PCL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : Even with the context it's ... what?
Mucky Tundra (20-Nov) : Matt LaFleur without context: “I don’t wanna pat you on the butt and you poop in my hand.”
beast (20-Nov) : We brought in a former Packers OL coach to help evaluate OL as a scout
beast (20-Nov) : Jets have been pretty good at picking DL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He landed good players thanks to high draft slot. He isn't good.
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He can shove his knowledge up his ass. He knows nothing.
beast (20-Nov) : More knowledge, just like bring in the Jets head coach
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : What? Why? Huh?
beast (19-Nov) : I wonder if the Packers might to try to bring Douglas in through Milt Hendrickson/Ravens connections
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : The Jets fired Joe Douglas, per sources
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Jets are a mess......
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Pretty sure Jets fired their scouting staff and just pluck former Packers.
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Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : When you cycle the weeks, the total over remains for season. But you get your W/L for that selected week. Confusing.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the totals are accurate..nrvrtmind
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : I don't follow what you are saying. The totals are not the same as last week.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : ok so then wht are the totals the same as last week?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : NFL Pick'em is auto updated when NFL Scores tab is clicked
Martha Careful (19-Nov) : The offense was OK. Let's not forget the Bear defense is very very good.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Who updates the leaderboard on NFLPickem?
beast (19-Nov) : Has the Packers offense been worse since the former Jets coach joined the Packers?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Offense gets his ass in gear, this could be good.
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Backup QB helped with three wins. Special Teams contributed to three wins.
bboystyle (18-Nov) : Lions played outside thats why. They scored 16 and 17 in the only 2 outside games this year
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : The rest of the NFL is catching up to Packers ... kicking is an issue throughout league
packerfanoutwest (18-Nov) : Packers DL Kenny Clark: We knew 'we were going to block' Bears' game-winning field goal attempt
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : Lions seem to be throttling everyone, but only (only) got 24 lol maybe the rain is why
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : Packers vs Lions game doesn't seem so bad.
beast (18-Nov) : Dennis Green "They are what we thought they were, and we let them off the hook!"
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : comment of the day Z2Cool "Bears better than we want to admit. Packers worse than we think. It's facts."
Mucky Tundra (17-Nov) : my worst case scenario: Bears fix their oline and get a coach like Johnson from the Lions and his scheme
Zero2Cool (17-Nov) : Bears get OL fixed amd we might have a problem
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : Pretty sure they already have scouting reports on guys who aren't even starting for their college team. The future is now for me.
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : I tend to let Gute and Co. Worry about the future.
beast (17-Nov) : That's great news and Packers need to keep upgrading their OL, DL and DBs this off-season, so missing one guy doesn't kill them
beast (17-Nov) : That's great news and Packers need to keep upgrading their OL, DL and DBs this off-season, so missing one guy doesn't kill them
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : Jaire and Evans Williams are both ACTIVE! Good news.
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : The badgers really need to change the whole offensive scheme. No draws no screens plus the quarterback is marginal
Cheesey (17-Nov) : If the Badgers had a decent QB, they would have won. The guy can't hit a wide open receiver
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : chop block
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : there was a very questionable job Block call that upon viewing replay was very borderline
beast (17-Nov) : How so? (I didn't watch)
Zero2Cool (17-Nov) : Badgers got hosed vs Oregon
packerfanoutwest (16-Nov) : damn,he hasn't played since week 2
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