play2win
12 years ago

Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson have said something similar about star free agents. If they are so good, why did the team that knows them best not resign them?

Player decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team overstocked at the position?
Coach philosophy change?


And just because Player A was a stud with Team A, it doesn't mean Player A will achieve similar success with Team B. The thinking that it does, is how the "Madden" line of thought was coined. In Madden, players are ranked by arbitrary (okay, maybe not arbitrary but have you really looked at those rankings?) numerical values. You can yank a player and pluck him into your team and he'll perform the same as he did on the previous team. Madden doesn't take into account schemes or anything like that in its rankings. Much like fans fail to do as well.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Well, I think Wolf and Thompson have made their major blunders in some of their decision making regarding this kind of top talent. Wayne Simmons, Desmond Howard and Cullen Jenkins. Those are three players that should have been re-signed and were not. IMO, those losses cost us SBs.

I gotta say, MAN DO I LOVE THIS THREAD! There is some good stuff in here. It took me this long to jump in because I've been so burned about not adding a single top talent at a real need position. I believe our real need positions outweigh the number of draft picks we have. Also, figure only half of your picks become really solid contributors, if you are lucky. So, how much better will, say, 4 draftees make us? If we're lucky?

Murphy is towing the company line established by Thompson, who I believe might be a bit too rigid with this stance. Sometimes great players are let go simply because of the cap situation of their previous team. We could have signed a great player to help us get better. Now, we have to count solely on the draft, and possibly 2nd or 3rd tier FAs signings after the draft.

I'll add, just because you draft them, it doesn't mean they are automatically better than other players. Thompson is paying both Finley and Jones some bigger cash than their performances dictated, in the hopes they will realize the potential he drafted them on. Those are wasted dollars IMO.
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
Desmond Howard chose to leave beacuse Oakland said he'd be on the field as a WR, something the Packers didn't and wouldn't offer.
Cullen Jenkins, christ, I am NOT going over that one again.
Wayne Simmons, I don't recall 100%, but I think he had major attitude issues in the locker room and that is why they parted ways. It wasn't that bad of a decision, since he wasn't that good.
UserPostedImage
+1
play2win
12 years ago

I don't think anyone has said a free agent CAN'T make a difference. I think what is being said is the RISK vs REWARD is not favorable, thus, not worth the extra money you end up paying out. At least, that's what I have been saying from the start. And even I think there's a time and place to overpay for a player.

So, I have two words for people who keep assuming and generalizing so extreme ... BITE ME!

[grin1]

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I see the risk no greater than hoping a player you drafted 5 years ago will get automatically get better by paying him a top 6 in the NFL salary for his position.

I believe both are about 50/50 in terms of landing a top performer. Remove the FA 50/50, and you have to hit at a higher level on your draft picks. How did our #1 picks over the last 3 years fare last year? Our #2's? Over the past 3 years, we had only -3- players that made major contributions to our 2012 season, selected rounds 1-3: Hayward, Cobb and Burnett. 4 if you count Mike Neal, who was suspended for 4 of our games last year. Those were all important games for playoff seeding, and he missed them all.

3 out of 9 players selected... over 3 years.

I understand injuries greatly affected this. Bulaga lasted till week 9 last season. The only 1st round pick in 3 years to make it through half the season. Take a longer look and injuries really have adversely affected this group of 9 players over the past 3 seasons.

And, this risk is somehow less than a time tested, top performing FA? Is it?

There was a great reward that came along with Eugene Robinson, Andre Rison, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, Reggie White, Ryan Pickett and Charles Woodson.
+2
TheKanataThrilla
12 years ago
Was the Reggie White signing a good move on our part or just lousy management by the Eagles? You don't let a talent like that go. If Rodgers ever became a free agent it would be obvious to me that our GM is not doing our job. White was the best player on his team. You do what you need to do to keep your best player under contract or you trade them for something.
+1
Pack93z
12 years ago

Was the Reggie White signing a good move on our part or just lousy management by the Eagles? You don't let a talent like that go. If Rodgers ever became a free agent it would be obvious to me that our GM is not doing our job. White was the best player on his team. You do what you need to do to keep your best player under contract or you trade them for something.

Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla 



Over the course of the years there have been others.. Julius Peppers comes to mind.. has that put a ring on the Bears fingers? Nnamdi Asomugha was supposed to be a game changer.. in less that a couple years he is a budget value player.

The Packers do dip into the Free Agent market.. last season for example they signed Jeff Saturday to fill a hole.. at a market salary. It didn't work out.. they pursued the center from the Texans, were in it till he decided to return there. Cedric Benson was another player.. neither really worked out they way we hoped..

We are only a month into new league year, we have two or three high dollar contracts in play yet, the draft to play out and a free agent market that still have a abundance of talent available.

I get the angst, especially with the track record overall being less than what fans want, but patience. The grocery cart still has a plenty of room to add players.. unfortunately the Packers are still working on the budget left after locking up Matthews and Rodgers.. maybe Raji as well.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
+2
play2win
12 years ago

Desmond Howard chose to leave beacuse Oakland said he'd be on the field as a WR, something the Packers didn't and wouldn't offer.
Cullen Jenkins, christ, I am NOT going over that one again.
Wayne Simmons, I don't recall 100%, but I think he had major attitude issues in the locker room and that is why they parted ways. It wasn't that bad of a decision, since he wasn't that good.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



This made me laugh, because yeah, we have bashed the CJ topic ad nauseum.

However, TheKanataThrilla makes an excellent point. I believe Wolf didn't even attempt to re-sign Howard and Simmons, just like Ted didn't talk with Jenkins' agent prior to his exodus.

I will say we lost -at least- 2 SB trophies as a result.

It doesn't hurt to try. Make the player who is about to leave at least feel wanted. Cullen Jenkins' 9.5 sacks and 32 games played could have really helped us over the last two years. I'm convinced Jenkins would have stayed with us had we made the effort.

You've mentioned in previous threads that we offered him more money to stay with us, and I never saw anything like that. I followed him very, very closely. From what I've read, we had no communication with him prior to his departure. I could be wrong, as always, but I don't think so on this one. He was the ONE player I thought we needed to retain in order to win back to back SBs. From what I recall, we didn't even talk to him, and he felt a bit put out by that. I don't think that is a good tact.
play2win
12 years ago

Over the course of the years there have been others.. Julius Peppers comes to mind.. has that put a ring on the Bears fingers? Nnamdi Asomugha was supposed to be a game changer.. in less that a couple years he is a budget value player.

The Packers do dip into the Free Agent market.. last season for example they signed Jeff Saturday to fill a hole.. at a market salary. It didn't work out.. they pursued the center from the Texans, were in it till he decided to return there. Cedric Benson was another player.. neither really worked out they way we hoped..

We are only a month into new league year, we have two or three high dollar contracts in play yet, the draft to play out and a free agent market that still have a abundance of talent available.

I get the angst, especially with the track record overall being less than what fans want, but patience. The grocery cart still has a plenty of room to add players.. unfortunately the Packers are still working on the budget left after locking up Matthews and Rodgers.. maybe Raji as well.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



true dat! 😆

However, I think we wasted some big dollars on the principle of retaining your own players. Dollars that could have been better spent. I hope I'm wrong. Finley and Jones were retained/re-signed simply because they are Ted's own, not because they did anything overwhelmingly good for the team. Both had decent years, but they didn't set the league on fire. We're paying them like they did though... I hope his decision is right. I don't think it is wrong to respectfully and reasonably question it.

+1
earthquake
12 years ago

Over the course of the years there have been others.. Julius Peppers comes to mind.. has that put a ring on the Bears fingers?

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



Julius Peppers has played at a fairly high level for the bears, but even then, I don't think he's worth the 6 year 84 million dollar contract he signed. He counts $16 million against the cap in 2013 for the bears, that's QB money. He's been a good pass rusher but not what I would call a game changing player, which you would expect for that much money.
blank
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
The offer Howard received was more than the Packers were willing to pay a KR/PR. No fault of the Packers there.
Wayne Simmons was not that good. He had an excellent mean streak, but he wasn't a difference maker game in game out. He had one really good game.
According to Cullen Jenkins, the Packers did offer him a contract before he reached free agency, but Jenkins felt he was worth more. Kind of like what happened with Greg Jennings.

Players want a lot. Teams have to think about future. The Packers don't have a deep pocket owner to bail them out, so they have to be frugal. I think some of us fans need to realize this and accept it. It's not like going to the store and buying a candy bar that you can just throw away. This is a drastic investment and the brass needs to calculate that investment.

edit, removed Jenkins comments ... you're gonna freely believe whatever you want ... not worth the time continuing to repeat the same facts over and over again.
UserPostedImage
+1
play2win
12 years ago

The offer Howard received was more than the Packers were willing to pay a KR/PR. No fault of the Packers there.
Wayne Simmons was not that good. He had an excellent mean streak, but he wasn't a difference maker game in game out. He had one really good game.
According to Cullen Jenkins, the Packers did offer him a contract before he reached free agency, but Jenkins felt he was worth more. Kind of like what happened with Greg Jennings.

Players want a lot. Teams have to think about future. The Packers don't have a deep pocket owner to bail them out, so they have to be frugal. I think some of us fans need to realize this and accept it. It's not like going to the store and buying a candy bar that you can just throw away. This is a drastic investment and the brass needs to calculate that investment. At the time, Jenkins was coming off another injured season, nearing 30 years old and they had a young guy (speculation here) they felt could soften the loss of Jenkins. Even with that said, they offered more money and still Jenkins left.

There, you roped me into wasting more of my time because you simply refuse to accept JENKINS FUCKING LEFT THE PACKERS!

[palm] 😆

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Even funnier....

😆 😆 😢 😢 😢 😆 😆

I swear, it didn't happen like that, and I would love to see anything corroborating that.

"Cullen Jenkins offered the Green Bay Packers a hometown discount in exchange for some long-term security but at this point the defensive lineman sounds like a man resigned to the fact that he’ll be playing elsewhere in 2011.

Jenkins, a valuable member of the team’s front, turned 30 in January and he’s now out of a contract and held up as a free agent by the NFL’s lockout. Although he’s battled some injuries the past few seasons, he’ll likely be coveted on the open market.

Jenkins talked about the Super Bowl champion Packers in the past tense when visiting on ESPN Milwaukee according to Jason Wilde.

“Heading into last year, I’ve always been up there and always been a Packer, and I wanted to stay a Packer,” Jenkins said. “So we approached the team and wanted to get some type of security, some type of longer-term deal before the season so I would know I would be there. It wasn’t about money, it was about security, about trying to see if we could work something out.”

Would he take a lesser offer to remain with the Packers?

“Yeah,” Jenkins replied. “That was the thought then. I knew in going to them, I know Green Bay, I know the market, I know how they handle business, and the thought was if we could get something reasonable worked out, I knew I would take less than what I could’ve gotten in free agency. But they never approached me with anything and never got any type of negotiations going. It’s just how the business is. They had a lot of younger guys and felt they could move forward in that direction.”

Jenkins missed five games with a hamstring pull last season and also had a broken hand. He still turned in career-best production. He missed 12 games in 2008 with a torn pectoral muscle. So there’s some risk in investing in a player with his kind of mileage, but he’s proven he can excel in 4-3 and 3-4 schemes.

While he hasn’t completely ruled out returning to the Packers, he knows Mike Neal is waiting in the wings.
“The possibility is there, I guess,” Jenkins said. “It’s one of those things that I’m not really looking into (though). I’m just waiting for this lockout to be over with so I can figure out what options I’m going to have.”

Chances are if Jenkins leaves Green Bay, he’ll be leaving for a lucrative offer."
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Cullen-Jenkins-offered-Packers-hometown-discount.html 
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