This.

+1

I've come off really strongly against suicid-ists (is that even a word?) and what Rock said is mainly why. It's a selfish, selfish thing to do.

That said, I'm very well aware of depression and it's effects on people. My grandmother and father both were/are bi-polar. My wife struggled with it ever since her father turned away from his family and to the bottle, eventually drinking/smoking himself to death. I've dealt with depression going through junior high and high school. Not to any serious degree, but I can still relate mostly to others going through it. I would love to help every person that deals with it on this severe of a level to prevent suicide, or at least show them suicide is far from a legitimate option.

Those that ultimately choose that dark path, ironically, don't get the freedom they are so desperately seeking. And while I empathize with their family and friends, I just can't ever feel 'sorry' for those that do make that choice. I watched my dad lose two really good and close friends because of suicide. Both guys killed themselves the exact same way years apart. They didn't even know each other. It is the coward's way out. Harsh as that sounds, it's the best way for me to put how I feel about the issue.

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There have been times when it may have been only one thing that kept me from taking that coward's way out. And it was a very selfish reason. It's an article of my personal faith that the only thing that bars one from eternity with certainty is Judas's sin.

Judas burns forever not because of his betrayal but because his post-betrayal despair.

And while there are times when I've wanted to say "fuck it", I'm always stopped by the beleif that if I do, I'm not just fucking with this life, but with this next.

But in one way, that's even more selfish than your "coward's" option, isn't it?

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I dunno. Depends on how you look at it. Is it selfish to want to be with our Heavenly Father for eternity, as it is His longings as well, isn't it?

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That's how Paul seemed to feel, anyway.

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I guess I understand why people think suicide is cowardly and selfish. (And I dothink it the ultimate sin.)

And there are some ways in which I fully admit to being a coward: snakes and rats, for two.

But I think the thing we forget is that if someone is so severely depressed that they are contemplating suicide, by definition they are no longer thinking straight. Suicide under such conditions is not a reasoned or rational decision. And to me, ascribing a value like "selfish" or "cowardly" to it really misses that reality. If someone is at that point, with their mental state that out of whack already, it's not a moment when other people are going to be relevant.

And, ISTM, it is one time when we on the outside should NOT be saying, "think of others."

This is very personal for me, because right now I"m fairly close to one of those dangerous places. One of those places where I find myself very tempted to think that I've fucked away my life (both the part already past and, because of my weight, etc, a big chunk of a future I might have had) with nothing to show for it, nothing accomplished. Much as I hate the phrase, I'm in a service profession and I look at my 20-plus years in the classroom and I say, just how much have I helped people think better about economics and history.

Now the point is not that this thinking is accurate or properly focused. The point is that there are times when that thinking gets too much control of me. When my mental state gets warped -- times, unlike right at this moment, when I *cannot* articulate in a post like this what I'm thinking, *and* times when I feel no point in even trying to do so.

And here's the takeaway: what I've learned from past battles with my demons is that when I get to that danger point, I *have* to think selfishly. Really selfishly. Lose-some-of-the-few-friends-and-little-respect-I-do-have, and say it's not about anyone else but me. Me me me! It's not about anything more, or anything less, than getting my own goddamn head on straight again. And service to others be damned. And worrying about how others are affected be damned.

If I didn't think selfishly, really selfishly, at such times, I think it would just make the situation even worse.

I've never really come close to suicide. I'm too indecisive to make that kind of decision. And, as I tried to suggest in my earlier post, I think the big reason why is that I trust God to do right by me in the end. But I think a smaller reason is that when push comes to shove, I'm willing to be pretty seriously self-absorbed and selfish.

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Been there......too damn many times.

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Just to let you all know, every single person who commented so far on this thread I value, even if I haven't met you in person. You've all made me think. You've all made me laugh. You've all made me question my beliefs.

Although we don't always agree on things, if any of you committed suicide, I will be very, very angry with you. It's because I'm a selfish prick and I like you as people and don't want you dying anytime soon.

OK? So don't do it. Please.

Or if you think about it, send me a PM and I'll send my phone number. I'm serious. I'll be there for you.

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Correction: You can't save someone that doesn't want to be saved, but you never know when someone doesn't want to be saved or is too ashamed or worn down with life to ask.

i am offering the same, zombie. wade, porforis, anyone else needs someone to talk to, send me a PM & i'll give you my number.

may shock some of you but i've had issues with depression in the past & have been feeling like i need to get back on zoloft or something lately. when little things start to overwhelm me, i know that's a sign.

i'll never forget what they told us in rehab when the ex went thru it...
"alot of people die because the family thought they had to want it for themselves in order to get help". sometimes people need that push to get over the hump & make the changes they need to.

Well said Por.

And 4Pack, same offer to you, amiga. You're right about some people do want someone to reach for them.

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