Formo
14 years ago

Seeing a uniform (and medals!) on a civilian is a slap in the face to anyone who ever served in our country's military.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Holy hyperbole, people! I have three rows of ribbons on my chest (not to mention airborne wings) and I couldn't care less who wears a uniform or awards.

Heck, the guy is 26 and was wearing major rank. It's not like anyone would have taken him seriously anyway. Who was harmed by the costume? As long as he wasn't applying for veterans benefits, I don't see what the big deal is, 10 USC 771 not withstanding. I'm amazed that law has withstood First Amendment scrutiny anyway. I know George Bush's infamous Stolen Valor Act of 2006 was struck down this past August by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals as an unconstitutional infringement of freedom of speech. I applaud them for their courage in handing down that decision.

"Since69" wrote:



That's nice. To you, you couldn't care less. Which is all fine and dandy but what about the vets that it DOES matter? To me, it's kind of like a traditional / sacred 'rule'. I don't know if that's the case behind the statute against it, but it's how I'd look at it.

I don't take those uniforms lightly, and I wouldn't want other citizens to do so either. Wearing someone's BDUs or any sort of Full Dress Uniforms isn't something I could condone as 'not a big deal', costume for Halloween or not.
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Porforis
14 years ago

Seeing a uniform (and medals!) on a civilian is a slap in the face to anyone who ever served in our country's military.

"Formo" wrote:



Holy hyperbole, people! I have three rows of ribbons on my chest (not to mention airborne wings) and I couldn't care less who wears a uniform or awards.

Heck, the guy is 26 and was wearing major rank. It's not like anyone would have taken him seriously anyway. Who was harmed by the costume? As long as he wasn't applying for veterans benefits, I don't see what the big deal is, 10 USC 771 not withstanding. I'm amazed that law has withstood First Amendment scrutiny anyway. I know George Bush's infamous Stolen Valor Act of 2006 was struck down this past August by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals as an unconstitutional infringement of freedom of speech. I applaud them for their courage in handing down that decision.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



That's nice. To you, you couldn't care less. Which is all fine and dandy but what about the vets that it DOES matter? To me, it's kind of like a traditional / sacred 'rule'. I don't know if that's the case behind the statute against it, but it's how I'd look at it.

I don't take those uniforms lightly, and I wouldn't want other citizens to do so either. Wearing someone's BDUs or any sort of Full Dress Uniforms isn't something I could condone as 'not a big deal', costume for Halloween or not.

"Since69" wrote:



This is really a hard one for me, a self-proclaimed "real" conservative. One that preaches that we should never attempt to quell free speech or any of our other rights just because we disagree with the person expressing them. I do respect military service and attempting to impersonate a veteran is one of the more despicable actions I can think of at the moment, but what is the legal/constitutional argument that such an act cannot be considered free speech? I'm sure there's been constitutional cases where there's basic requirements for an act to be considered free speech (an actual message, for example), but in such a circumstance where basic requirements have been met, why is this a special case where the constitution should not apply?

What's the point of defending and respecting our veterans if we're trampling on the constitution at the same time? Again, correct me if I'm wrong about there being no constitutional basis for this protection, I'd love to be wrong in this scenario so I can go back to being angry.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
14 years ago

Seeing a uniform (and medals!) on a civilian is a slap in the face to anyone who ever served in our country's military.

"Porforis" wrote:



Holy hyperbole, people! I have three rows of ribbons on my chest (not to mention airborne wings) and I couldn't care less who wears a uniform or awards.

Heck, the guy is 26 and was wearing major rank. It's not like anyone would have taken him seriously anyway. Who was harmed by the costume? As long as he wasn't applying for veterans benefits, I don't see what the big deal is, 10 USC 771 not withstanding. I'm amazed that law has withstood First Amendment scrutiny anyway. I know George Bush's infamous Stolen Valor Act of 2006 was struck down this past August by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals as an unconstitutional infringement of freedom of speech. I applaud them for their courage in handing down that decision.

"Formo" wrote:



That's nice. To you, you couldn't care less. Which is all fine and dandy but what about the vets that it DOES matter? To me, it's kind of like a traditional / sacred 'rule'. I don't know if that's the case behind the statute against it, but it's how I'd look at it.

I don't take those uniforms lightly, and I wouldn't want other citizens to do so either. Wearing someone's BDUs or any sort of Full Dress Uniforms isn't something I could condone as 'not a big deal', costume for Halloween or not.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



This is really a hard one for me, a self-proclaimed "real" conservative. One that preaches that we should never attempt to quell free speech or any of our other rights just because we disagree with the person expressing them. I do respect military service and attempting to impersonate a veteran is one of the more despicable actions I can think of at the moment, but what is the legal/constitutional argument that such an act cannot be considered free speech? I'm sure there's been constitutional cases where there's basic requirements for an act to be considered free speech (an actual message, for example), but in such a circumstance where basic requirements have been met, why is this a special case where the constitution should not apply?

What's the point of defending and respecting our veterans if we're trampling on the constitution at the same time? Again, correct me if I'm wrong about there being no constitutional basis for this protection, I'd love to be wrong in this scenario so I can go back to being angry.

"Since69" wrote:



I think the courts have set aside free speech when it comes it impersonation issues. You can't have people dressed up like police. (badges, guns and so on.) They can cause real problems if someone came to them for aid. Or the impersonator tried to get people to do what they want by implying they were a police officer.
The same could be said for a person dressed in an authentic military uniform. It could cause serious problems.
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Cheesey
14 years ago
Formo gets a +1 from me. He summed it up quite nicely.
To serve in the military is a big sacrifice. To pretend like you did when you didn't, is wrong.
I have way too much respect for those that have served to take that lightly.
UserPostedImage
Porforis
14 years ago

Seeing a uniform (and medals!) on a civilian is a slap in the face to anyone who ever served in our country's military.

"wpr" wrote:



Holy hyperbole, people! I have three rows of ribbons on my chest (not to mention airborne wings) and I couldn't care less who wears a uniform or awards.

Heck, the guy is 26 and was wearing major rank. It's not like anyone would have taken him seriously anyway. Who was harmed by the costume? As long as he wasn't applying for veterans benefits, I don't see what the big deal is, 10 USC 771 not withstanding. I'm amazed that law has withstood First Amendment scrutiny anyway. I know George Bush's infamous Stolen Valor Act of 2006 was struck down this past August by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals as an unconstitutional infringement of freedom of speech. I applaud them for their courage in handing down that decision.

"Porforis" wrote:



That's nice. To you, you couldn't care less. Which is all fine and dandy but what about the vets that it DOES matter? To me, it's kind of like a traditional / sacred 'rule'. I don't know if that's the case behind the statute against it, but it's how I'd look at it.

I don't take those uniforms lightly, and I wouldn't want other citizens to do so either. Wearing someone's BDUs or any sort of Full Dress Uniforms isn't something I could condone as 'not a big deal', costume for Halloween or not.

"Formo" wrote:



This is really a hard one for me, a self-proclaimed "real" conservative. One that preaches that we should never attempt to quell free speech or any of our other rights just because we disagree with the person expressing them. I do respect military service and attempting to impersonate a veteran is one of the more despicable actions I can think of at the moment, but what is the legal/constitutional argument that such an act cannot be considered free speech? I'm sure there's been constitutional cases where there's basic requirements for an act to be considered free speech (an actual message, for example), but in such a circumstance where basic requirements have been met, why is this a special case where the constitution should not apply?

What's the point of defending and respecting our veterans if we're trampling on the constitution at the same time? Again, correct me if I'm wrong about there being no constitutional basis for this protection, I'd love to be wrong in this scenario so I can go back to being angry.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I think the courts have set aside free speech when it comes it impersonation issues. You can't have people dressed up like police. (badges, guns and so on.) They can cause real problems if someone came to them for aid. Or the impersonator tried to get people to do what they want by implying they were a police officer.
The same could be said for a person dressed in an authentic military uniform. It could cause serious problems.

"Since69" wrote:



I guess I didn't think about that one, I guess that my only concern is that while a police officer has actual authority on the homeland, a marine doesn't have that same sort of authority. But hey, at least there's some rationale to this.
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

what about the vets that it DOES matter?

"Formo" wrote:



Maybe they should chill out and not take themselves so seriously. It's just a job, people -- and one for which servicemembers are paid twice, sometimes even three times what they'd make in the civilian world for comparable work. (Try getting paid $40,000 a year to be an EMT, secretary, or truck mechanic on the civilian side -- they'll laugh in your face.) Any vet who tells you he didn't do it for the money is lying to you. There isn't a person in the military who'd show up for work if he knew he wasn't getting that guaranteed paycheck every month. Veterans screamed to high heaven when George Bush proposed eliminating all combat pays. I should know -- I was one of those who screamed.

While I certainly met quite a few jingoists in the military, I didn't meet too many true patriots, at least not any who had a genuine understanding of the principles upon which this country was founded. I did, however, meet a whole lot of people who openly admitted to being too scared to try to make it in the civilian world and whose main reason for staying in the military was that it was perceived by society as more honorable than living on welfare. (And let's face it: the military lifestyle truly is one grandiose welfare scheme.) The number-one reason given to encourage soldiers to stay in: "It's easy money." Which it truly is.

No joke.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

It could cause serious problems.

"wpr" wrote:



So deal with the problems when they arise and punish them severely. No one is harmed by someone walking around in military or police regalia. Now if the impersonator tries to use the perceived sense of authority derived from their costume to compel others to perform an action against their will, that should probably be a felony. But only a fool would attempt that stunt openly. The costume would make him so distinctive and easy to identify.

Similarly, as I said above, if someone attempted to fraudulently obtain benefits appertaining to their impersonated position, that should be punishable too. But it's not like a uniform alone is enough to get someone a pension or healthcare. One has to have documentation and paperwork. Heck, one must present a military ID just to get the military discount on a haircut or the free meal on Veterans Day at Applebee's.

Just because someone could abuse their costume in such a fashion doesn't mean that the liberty of other responsible individuals to express themselves in this manner should be restricted.
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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
14 years ago

It could cause serious problems.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



So deal with the problems when they arise and punish them severely. No one is harmed by someone walking around in military or police regalia. Now if the impersonator tries to use the perceived sense of authority derived from their costume to compel others to perform an action against their will, that should probably be a felony. But only a fool would attempt that stunt openly. The costume would make him so distinctive and easy to identify.

Similarly, as I said above, if someone attempted to fraudulently obtain benefits appertaining to their impersonated position, that should be punishable too. But it's not like a uniform alone is enough to get someone a pension or healthcare. One has to have documentation and paperwork. Heck, one must present a military ID just to get the military discount on a haircut or the free meal on Veterans Day at Applebee's.

Just because someone could abuse their costume in such a fashion doesn't mean that the liberty of other responsible individuals to express themselves in this manner should be restricted.

"wpr" wrote:



so you are saying we should wait until the child in the park who needs help runs up to a costumed officer to do something about it instead of not allowing the confusing in the first place?
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I remember being terrified of a Yoda costume when I was five or six. Are you saying we should ban someone from wearing the costume of a monster because it might frighten a child -- or worse, be used to disguise the identity of a kidnapper?

While we're at it, why don't we ban computers because they might be used to purvey child porn?
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Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
I am convinced of it.. as generations pass, the core values such as respect and honor are diminishing rapidly.

It is quickly become a society of do as I want, when I want, however I want with very little societal concern whatsoever.

Next up.. abolishing the very union of the United States because it is restricting.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
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beast (24-Dec) : Sounds like no serious injuries from the Saints game and Jacobs and Watson should play in the Vikings game
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : both games Watson missed, Packers won
Martha Careful (24-Dec) : I hope all of you have a Merry Christmas!
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Oh I know about Jacobs, I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to mimic Zero lol
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : Jacobs was just sat down, Watson re-injured that knee that kept him out 1 game earlier
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : I needed .14 that's. .14 points for the whole 4th quarter to win and go to the SB. Lol
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Jacobs gonna be OK???
Zero2Cool (24-Dec) : Watson gonna be OK???
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : Inactives tonight for the Pack: Alexander- knee Bullard - ankle Williams - quad Walker -ankle Monk Heath
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : No Jaire, but hopefully the front 7 destroys the line of scrimmage & forces Rattler into a few passes to McKinney.
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : minny could be #1 seed and the Lions #5 seed
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : We'd have same Division and Conference records. Strength of schedule we edge them
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I just checked. What tie breaker?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes its possible but unlikely. If we do get the 5th, we face the NFCS winner
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ahh, ok.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes due to tie breaker
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I mean, unlikely, yes, but mathematically, 5th is possible by what I'm reading.
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : If Vikings lose out, Packers win out, Packers get 5th, right?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : Minny isnt going to lose out so 5th seed is out of the equation. We are playing for the 6th or 7th seed which makes no difference
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, the ad revenue goes to the broadcast company but they gotta pay to air the game on their channel/network
beast (23-Dec) : If we win tonight the game is still relative in terms of 5th, 6th or 7th seed... win and it's 5th or 6th, lose and it's 6th or 7th
beast (23-Dec) : Mucky, I thought the ad revenue went to the broadcasting companies or the NFL, at least not directly
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think the revenue share is moot, isn't it? That's the CBA an Salary Cap handling that.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : i mean game becomes irrelevant if we win tonight. Just a game where we are trying to play spoilers to Vikings chance at the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, I would guess ad revenue from more eyes watching tv
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I would think it would hurt the home team because people would have to cancel last minute maybe? i dunno
beast (23-Dec) : I agree that it's BS for fans planning on going to the game. But how does it bring in more money? I'm guessing indirectly?
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : bs on flexing the game....they do it for the $$league$$, not the hometown fans
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I see what you did there Mucky
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : dammit. 3:25pm
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Packers Vikings flexed to 3:35pm
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Upon receiving the news about Luke Musgrave, I immediately fell to the ground
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Yeah baby!
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : LUKE MUSGRAVE PLAYING TONIGHT~!~~~~WOWHOAAOHAOAA yah
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I wanna kill new QB's ... blitz the crap out of them.
beast (23-Dec) : Barry seemed to get too conservative against new QBs, Hafley doesn't have that issue
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : However, we seem to struggle vs new QB's
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Should be moot point, cuz Packers should win tonight.
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : ok I stand corrected
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ok, yes, you are right. I see that now how they get 7th
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : 5th - Packers win out, Vikings lose out. Maybe?
beast (23-Dec) : Saying no to the 6th lock.
beast (23-Dec) : No, with the Commanders beating the Eagles, Packers could have a good chance of 6th or 7th unless the win out
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think if Packers win, they are locked 6th with chance for 5th.
beast (23-Dec) : But it doesn't matter, as the Packers win surely win one of their remaining games
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