DakotaT
  • DakotaT
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14 years ago
So Wade, you're saying were a bunch of spoiled panty waistes that should basically STFU and enjoy the wealth handed down to us from people that actually might have had it harder.

I concur.

And to think some poor bastard in Bangledesh is walking around with all his possession on his person and is looking for a meal and a place to lay his head for the night.
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all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

Well, by historical standards most of the "poor" of America aren't.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than 1/8th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than the current USA "poverty line".

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/15th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/2 of the current USA "poverty line".

All four answers: True.

And that's *after* the record growth of the last decade or so in China and India.

"Wade" wrote:




Fair enough, but you overlook the fact that goods (from electronics to food) are much cheaper in India and China than they are in America.

In addition, many people in China and India are part of larger collectives - be it castes, tribes, or extended families - that have a larger base of resources to pool together to survive.
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all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

There are plenty of corrupt wealthy people out there, but that doesn't change the fact that pretty much everything you value in life, you owe to a rich person somewhere. Rich people are what make this world worth living. There is just as much corruption -- and in my opinion, far more -- among the poor as among the rich. It irks me that most people seem to assume that the rich get to their status by unjust means. Maybe we should be turning our critical eye upon the poor, seeing how they're fucking up, and learning from their mistakes, instead of trying to tear everyone down who's learned the rules of life and played the game better than we have.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:




Echoing Dakota, you are overlooking the historical legacies that have limited the poor in many ways. It's so much easier to fuck up, and also have your fuck-ups screw you over royally, when you historically have little to nothing to begin with.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago




Echoing Dakota, you are overlooking the historical legacies that have limited the poor in many ways. It's so much easier to fuck up, and also have your fuck-ups screw you over royally, when you historically have little to nothing to begin with.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



There have been numerous cases of Americans starting with nothing who in one lifetime have amassed wealth.

I had a good friend in 7th grade who came here in a boat with literally nothing. He took advantage of our underrated education system, worked for awhile, put himself through college, started a business, and is now doing quite well.

You can make excuses for not living up to your potential. Or you can live up to your potential. We have a lot more choice in this life than we realize.
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all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

You can make excuses for not living up to your potential. Or you can live up to your potential. We have a lot more choice in this life than we realize.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



I don't think it's quite the either/or proposition you are making it out to be.

Yes there is potential for upward mobility, I will not deny that. But that potential is quite limited when you are poor; the resources at your disposal are marginal. For every person who achieves the "American Dream" there are others for whom that dream never materializes*. There is a stigma with being poor, one that assumes outrageous level of incompetence that somehow confine the poor to their conditions. I will not be so naive to claim that there are poor people who are hampered by their own inability to do much of anything, but I still think many many more have very limited avenues to escape their chronic poverty.

Much like Martin Luther King Jr. (whose writings I am a huge fan of) once said, it's hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you have no boots. I think that very much applies, and that there are tremendous impediments to attaining boots, so to speak, when you do not have them in the first place.

* The academic Kathleen Stewart, whose views I very much agree with, wrote a (IMO) marvelous piece - Real American Dreams (can be nightmares) - which shows that for many who achieve the American Dream, there are those who do not.
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porky88
14 years ago

Well, by historical standards most of the "poor" of America aren't.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than 1/8th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than the current USA "poverty line".

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/15th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/2 of the current USA "poverty line".

All four answers: True.

And that's *after* the record growth of the last decade or so in China and India.

"Wade" wrote:



Obviously, the poor complain about the rich because they're jealous. How hard is it to figure that out? That doesn't mean that the USA shouldn't strive to make things better for the poor or anyone else for that matter. The key is striking the right kinda balance. However, just because other countries are more screwed than us, doesn't make it a valid excuse to ignore some of the serious problems pertaining to the poor in this country.
Formo
14 years ago

You can make excuses for not living up to your potential. Or you can live up to your potential. We have a lot more choice in this life than we realize.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



I don't think it's quite the either/or proposition you are making it out to be.

Yes there is potential for upward mobility, I will not deny that. But that potential is quite limited when you are poor; the resources at your disposal are marginal. For every 1 person who achieves the "American Dream" there are hundreds, if not thousands, for whom that dream never materializes*. There is a stigma with being poor, one that assumes outrageous level of incompetence that somehow confine the poor to their conditions. I will not be so naive to claim that there are poor people who are hampered by their own inability to do much of anything, but I still think many many more have very limited avenues to escape their chronic poverty.

Much like Martin Luther King Jr. (whose writings I am a huge fan of) once said, it's hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you have no boots. I think that very much applies, and that there are tremendous impediments to attaining boots, so to speak, when you do not have them in the first place.

* The academic Kathleen Stewart, whose views I very much agree with, wrote a (IMO) marvelous piece - Real American Dreams (can be nightmares) - which shows that for many who achieve the American Dream, there are many more who do not.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Sounds like another case for welfare.

No thanks, didn't work the first time.. Not gonna work a second or third time.

If people would stop looking for excuses outside of what is controllable and use that energy on finding a way to succeed at whatever it is they want to succeed in, this world/country would be a better place.

But then again, instead of listening to the pity parties the poor throw themselves all the damn time, I'm using my time and listening to the rich friends I have that actually did something about their poverty.
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all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

Sounds like another case for welfare.

"Formo" wrote:



Hell no. It's more a case for the government to improve the resources for the poor (like quality teachers in schools, better re-training programs, etc.), not give them handouts.


But then again, instead of listening to the pity parties the poor throw themselves all the damn time, I'm using my time and listening to the rich friends I have that actually did something about their poverty.

"Formo" wrote:



See my first post of page 5 for a more concise and clearly articulated point I wanted to originally express.
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Formo
14 years ago


Frankly, a lot of people like to claim a "woe is me" attitude amongst the poor that limits them. In my life, I have yet to see a single impoverished person adopt that attitude. Yes, they detest having to use food stamps, struggling just to get by, and they also expect as citizens some assistance from their government, but anyone who thinks these are pity parties that prevent them from doing something worthwhile with their time is gravely mistaken.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Attitude is everything, my friend. We are in life exactly where our choices put us. Yes, shit happens. But it doesn't just happen to the broke or poor. It happens to the wealthy too. You think how the wealthy react to that shit is any different than how the broke react to it? I know for damn sure it is.

Of course, I may be wrong; I have not met with or even know most of the poor in America. If you have any particular example of poor people throwing pity parties, please share them;

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Any body pointing to their circumstances as the reason, or one of the reasons, they aren't making more money or being more successful is the 'pity party' I'm talking about.

The two instances you point out (about your father and your neighborhood friends) kind of baffles me. What is your point to them? That you think they deserve more money or success? If so, based on what? Sounds like any one of them could have started their own business or gotten more schooling to get better jobs (thus equaling more income), and put themselves on the path to success. I'm not dogging that they didn't. I'm just saying.

Pointing out all the instances of poor/broke people doesn't nullify my point that we ALWAYS have a choice.
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porky88
14 years ago

Still, never once did I hear any parent mope about and blame his / her condition on the government, expecting them to bail them out. Yes, they expect to be helped by their government as citizens who paid taxes, but that is quite different from expecting the government to give out checks and solve all their problems.

Frankly, a lot of people like to claim a "woe is me" attitude amongst the poor that limits them. In my life, I have yet to see a single impoverished person adopt that attitude. Yes, they detest having to use food stamps, struggling just to get by, and they also expect as citizens some assistance from their government, but anyone who thinks these are pity parties that prevent them from doing something worthwhile with their time is gravely mistaken.

Of course, I may be wrong; I have not met with or even know most of the poor in America. If you have any particular example of poor people throwing pity parties, please share them; I do not doubt that there are poor people who simply sit back content to blame others for their plight without the slightest bit of interest in helping themselves and would like to know more about such people. In my engagement the vast majority of those who are really impoverished, though, that is not my experience. Again, I'd be happy to stand corrected.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



I lived in a mobile home as a young child. We weren't on any goverment programs as far as I know. Things were definitely difficult, but my parents managed to get through some tough times.

Anyways, not far from where we lived there was a trailer park. From what I've gathered, humiliation is a common theme. They're embarrassed to be living in tough circumstances. A lot of people work hard too, but that's just the reality of where they are in their life.

Obviously people abuse the system. Rich do too. It's not a poor or a rich problem. It's a people problem. That will never be fixed because people are greedy and/or looking for the easy way out most of the time.

However, I can say I've been around both parties, though it's been on a limited base. I'm hardly an expert and maybe my mind will change, but they do react differently to shit happening as Formo puts it. For the rich, they're usually still well off and they recover. There is always drama, but again, that's just people being people. When stuff goes down to the poor, they're fraked a lot of the times. Sometimes black and white is black and white.
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