Well, by historical standards most of the "poor" of America aren't.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than 1/8th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than the current USA "poverty line".

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/15th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/2 of the current USA "poverty line".

All four answers: True.

And that's *after* the record growth of the last decade or so in China and India.

"Wade" wrote:

There are plenty of corrupt wealthy people out there, but that doesn't change the fact that pretty much everything you value in life, you owe to a rich person somewhere. Rich people are what make this world worth living. There is just as much corruption -- and in my opinion, far more -- among the poor as among the rich. It irks me that most people seem to assume that the rich get to their status by unjust means. Maybe we should be turning our critical eye upon the poor, seeing how they're fucking up, and learning from their mistakes, instead of trying to tear everyone down who's learned the rules of life and played the game better than we have.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:

Echoing Dakota, you are overlooking the historical legacies that have limited the poor in many ways. It's so much easier to fuck up, and also have your fuck-ups screw you over royally, when you historically have little to nothing to begin with.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:

You can make excuses for not living up to your potential. Or you can live up to your potential. We have a lot more choice in this life than we realize.

"zombieslayer" wrote:

Well, by historical standards most of the "poor" of America aren't.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than 1/8th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in China today is less than the current USA "poverty line".

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/15th of per capita real income in the USA.

True or false: Per capita real income in India today is less than 1/2 of the current USA "poverty line".

All four answers: True.

And that's *after* the record growth of the last decade or so in China and India.

"Wade" wrote:

I don't think it's quite the either/or proposition you are making it out to be.

Yes there is potential for upward mobility, I will not deny that. But that potential is quite limited when you are poor; the resources at your disposal are marginal. For every 1 person who achieves the "American Dream" there are hundreds, if not thousands, for whom that dream never materializes*. There is a stigma with being poor, one that assumes outrageous level of incompetence that somehow confine the poor to their conditions. I will not be so naive to claim that there are poor people who are hampered by their own inability to do much of anything, but I still think many many more have very limited avenues to escape their chronic poverty.

Much like Martin Luther King Jr. (whose writings I am a huge fan of) once said, it's hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you have no boots. I think that very much applies, and that there are tremendous impediments to attaining boots, so to speak, when you do not have them in the first place.

* The academic Kathleen Stewart, whose views I very much agree with, wrote a (IMO) marvelous piece - Real American Dreams (can be nightmares) - which shows that for many who achieve the American Dream, there are many more who do not.

"zombieslayer" wrote:

Sounds like another case for welfare.

"Formo" wrote:

But then again, instead of listening to the pity parties the poor throw themselves all the damn time, I'm using my time and listening to the rich friends I have that actually did something about their poverty.

"Formo" wrote:

Frankly, a lot of people like to claim a "woe is me" attitude amongst the poor that limits them. In my life, I have yet to see a single impoverished person adopt that attitude. Yes, they detest having to use food stamps, struggling just to get by, and they also expect as citizens some assistance from their government, but anyone who thinks these are pity parties that prevent them from doing something worthwhile with their time is gravely mistaken.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:

Of course, I may be wrong; I have not met with or even know most of the poor in America. If you have any particular example of poor people throwing pity parties, please share them;

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:

Still, never once did I hear any parent mope about and blame his / her condition on the government, expecting them to bail them out. Yes, they expect to be helped by their government as citizens who paid taxes, but that is quite different from expecting the government to give out checks and solve all their problems.

Frankly, a lot of people like to claim a "woe is me" attitude amongst the poor that limits them. In my life, I have yet to see a single impoverished person adopt that attitude. Yes, they detest having to use food stamps, struggling just to get by, and they also expect as citizens some assistance from their government, but anyone who thinks these are pity parties that prevent them from doing something worthwhile with their time is gravely mistaken.

Of course, I may be wrong; I have not met with or even know most of the poor in America. If you have any particular example of poor people throwing pity parties, please share them; I do not doubt that there are poor people who simply sit back content to blame others for their plight without the slightest bit of interest in helping themselves and would like to know more about such people. In my engagement the vast majority of those who are really impoverished, though, that is not my experience. Again, I'd be happy to stand corrected.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote: