zombieslayer
14 years ago

Suicide doesn't bother me. I have a personal theory that a lot of people who commit suicide in their teen and early adult years are the same people who would have died in infancy and early childhood before the advent of modern medicine. Faulty genes find ways to weed themselves out of the gene pool. It's a natural and expected effect of sexual reproduction. Civilization seems hellbent on flouting the dictates of natural selection, but it usually finds a way to rear its head anyway. The problem is the more clever we get at evading it, the more violent it becomes in asserting dominance.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I actually wish that was so. As cold as that sounds, I'm all for the human race getting rid of its trash and promoting its best. I've always said one of the problems with civilization is that everyone lives to reproduce. Not a good thing.

But alas, known quite a few "gems" who committed suicide, including hands down the most gifted artist I've ever known. Also, the absolute best and the brightest rarely breed. Smartest woman (with an IQ that dwarfs mine, and mine's pretty high) I ever knew is asexual. Smartest guy I know is a basket case and never leaves the house so obviously, he won't reproduce either.

But you're talking really young. I only knew a few people who killed themselves that young and my sample size is too small to be scientifically relevant.

In defense of Mr. Formo here, I think people are reading into what he's saying too much. Bullying occurs because teens are dicks and cunts. Let's be real. Gays and straights are in the same boat. My response to bullying will get you expelled in today's politically correct overreact to everything climate so I'll just seal my lips.

Open advice to young gays and lesbians - if your life sucks, come to San Francisco. There will be a hell of a lot more support here than anywhere else in the country.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
My research mentor and I had a discussion about this the other day. I think a compelling case can be made, based on the procreative habits of our species, that intelligence and artistic ability are not expressions of biological/reproductive fitness and may in fact be the opposite. With intelligence and talent come indecision and self-doubt, traits that are antithetical to reproductive success.

Think about it this way. Put two men -- a brilliant intellectual and a grimy mechanic -- on a desert island. Who's more likely to survive? I say the mechanic, because he's practical and knows how to work with his hands. The intellectual will be clueless when it comes to performing basic survival tasks and will probably starve to death while he spends his entire time making grand plans for escape.

Intelligence only really becomes an advantage in a society where the gritty details of survival and existence are cared for by the hands-on people, freeing the more inept intellectuals who are devoid of survival instincts the chance to stand on their shoulders and envision creature comforts that make life more pleasant but less biologically viable.
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Formo
  • Formo
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago

don't be givin me the eye roll buddy or i will kick your ass!! ;)

"4PackGirl" wrote:



Just ask my wife.. I promise I'll like it. =P

i get what you're saying, i really do. in fact, when i first heard the news reports of the gay suicides, i thought 'hey - what about the kids who are being bullied for no reason'. then i realized that i was being kinda selfish. in the end, i'm grateful that by whatever means it took, bullying is being discussed in a broad spectrum. i don't think it should be a political discussion at all. anytime politics gets involved with a serious issue, that issue is lost in the mix.

"4PackGirl" wrote:



That's where I'm mostly upset about. That this is being a political issue, and it shouldn't. If someone wants to be in full support of gays and against their bullies, more power to them. I don't think we as a society should be looking to the government to fix this issue. All it'll do is give politicians a platform to take more of our money. If one wants to support the bullied (gay or otherwise), look into starting a non-profit organization or donating to a cause that stands for this issue. One that doesn't take public money. Soooo much more can be done that way, and it'll be more effective because Uncle Sam won't have his hands on the thing to mess it up.

And that way people like me, who don't agree that bullied gays are to be treated any differently than the other bullied kids, can't say shit about it. I wouldn't have to support it if I didn't want to.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago



I actually wish that was so. As cold as that sounds, I'm all for the human race getting rid of its trash and promoting its best. I've always said one of the problems with civilization is that everyone lives to reproduce. Not a good thing.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



You'll be happy to know, zombie, that economic history supports your claim. One reason that the West was able to escape the Malthusian trap was that the best and brightest were especially fecund. Greg Clark calls it "survival of the richest".

Ironically, our approach to population growth (start with the rich having fewer kids, and then try to convine the ppor to do the same) is exactly the wrong one. We ought to be encouraging the best and brightest to be fruitful and multiply.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
For those interested, here's an 90 min. lecture by Clark...


[youtube]mYspzYiX_kg[/youtube]
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
4PackGirl
14 years ago
lol on the ass kickin, formo!

back to the bullying deal. many states already have anti-bullying laws. in illinois, you can be charged with a misdemeanor if you're making someone fearful of being in school. i think this law was put in place mostly to force schools NOT to look the other way. for me, it took sending letters to every member of the school board before the principal took me seriously & the situation more seriously. i'm sure he thought i'd just go away but he couldn't have been more wrong!!

everybody complains about having too many laws & too much gov't (including me) but if people would do their f'in jobs & parents would actually be parents, alot of laws wouldn't be necessary.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
Though I admire Clark's scholarship -- in fact, I'm using Farewell to Alms as one of my texts right now -- I don't buy the Darwin part of his argument. There's a difference between deep cultural attitudes (where with respect to economic choice, England/Europe was different and, IMO, superior; this case has been made) and genetics (where the case has not been made and, IMO, won't ever be).

Which brings me to a point where I think I have significant disagreement with the rather Darwinian part of what NSD said about suicide.

I do think suicide can be a social problem. Or, rather, I think it can be a symptom of a problem in the underlying culture.

Tie it back to the bullying issue: Bullying is bad, everyone here agrees on that point. But suicide becomes a response to bullying not because of the bully, but because the bullied person sees the community (to which he wishes to belong/be accepted by) as with the bully. Suicide is contemplated because he's alone, because he's got nowhere to go.

That society does not in fact stand with the bully is not the point here. The point is that the suicide contemplator/bullied person can see it that way.

And the larger culture can provide an environment where it is more likely, not less, for the potential suicidee (is that a word?) to see himself as alone. Face it, in many ways, we are a culture that values conformity, not difference. And, indeed, our schools are especially places of conformity: whether it's peer pressure from other kids, or behavior rules for graduation, or separating the day into industrial segments of 50 minutes, or learning to be "professional" and "not to rock the boat," or political correctness, or a dozen other widely shared beliefs/practices, we are all about fitting in, about conforming.

We claim to be about protecting and enabling the individual, but over and over again we put limits on what the individual can/should do. Our words say one thing. Our actions say another. And actions, not words, are what establish our trustworthy, our credibility.

Suicide comes from despair. And where does despair come from? Despair comes from mistrust: mistrust of self, first, and then mistrust of others. I don't trust myself -- after all, I'm a consummate fuck-up. But I also don't trust anyone else, because they've shown that they have no respect/interest/toleration for me and what I value. So I can't solve my fucked-upness, and there's no one there who will really help me, who wants me as me, not as someone they can remake in the image they think is appropriate for me. So what else is left?

I'm all for interfering with natural selection processes. Not just because it means more geniuses, but because it means more individuals at a variety of intelligence levels. A lot of nonconformists are, in fact, fuckups. But I think the world is better for having them. And if Mother Nature can't deal with it, it's her problem.

I don't believe despair is ever a good thing.

Right now there are people we know -- in our families, in our workplaces, in our neighborhoods -- who are grappling with the demons of despair. And we have no clue who they are.

And a lot of their demons are stronger because we demand too much conformity as price of admission to our presence. Because we insist too much on "being like us" or "agreeing like us" or "doing like us" or "valuing like us", and acknowledge too little that the individual is just that, individual. Different. Not an example of a type. Not a member of a subgroup or a category or a race or a gender or a whatever. An individual that needs individual affirmation.

I actually agree with Formo's disgust for putting the "Gay" label on all this, and for his worries about this being taken over by the politicos. To my mind that will just encourage more conformity-thinking. That's what politicos do. They are in the business of saying "this kind of nonconformity, this kind of not fitting in" is okay. It's okay because it's a recognized means of conformity. A recognized "category" for diversity.

Which is exactly the opposite of what we need to be doing. It isn't alternate lifestyles that need to be affirmed, it's the individual who happens to have an alternative lifestyle or who happens to be wired differently gender/sexuality-wise. It isn't different groups that need to be affirmed, it's different individuals. It isn't "teen suicides" that need to be affirmed, its Joe Q. Teenag who is fighting his individual demons of despair. It's Jane Q. Adolesce who needs to both "be different" and "belong," and who is being asked -- not just by the bully, but by the rest of us -- to choose one over the other.

And calling it "nature" doesn't help. It's a cop out. Because part of human nature is to call Nature a bitch and slap her around until she behaves better. To resist that which is less valuable in favor of that which is more valuable.

Now if you want to argue that the individuals in question aren't worthy of preserving, that's a different matter. But don't use "nature" and its "selection" as your justification. Tell me why we're better off without them. Tell me why we're better off being more conforming.

This I believe.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
digsthepack
14 years ago
The only reason gay bullying is getting all this attention is that there is not a significant lobbying arm/political support for fat; acne scarred; glasses/braces wearing; demure/socially awkward, or out-of-mainstream kids. Just more fucktard politicians trying to make political points.

Kinda like the Matthew Sheppard case, and all the hate crime laws that are directed exclusively at gays/minorities. So, tell me, how is the brutal torture and killing of a straight, white/Asian man or woman any less hateful than that of a gay or minority of political preference?

Funny thing is, you get a group of black kids, like here in MPLS not too long ago, who specifically target/terrorize whites, and there is no hate crime attachment to the sentencing? It is either good for all or good for none.

I too am a bit of a Darwinist, and maintain that the human race is doomed because, unlike ANY creature found in nature, we facilitate the existence of our most ignorant and incapable...who happen to breed much more prolifically than the productive class. Granted, some people are truly victims of circumstances and need a hand, but most are victims of their own repeated bad decisions and conduct. For the latter, my sympathy is virtually non-existent...in fact, I feel disdain, if I am to be completely honest.

Yep...three generations from the end of society as we know it!!

And Wade...the underlying "social problem" we have is the insistence that children be so insulated from every little bump in life that, having never experienced a bad situation or down moment where someone was not there to soothe them or clean up the mess, they possess no coping skills whatsoever. Lifes first punch can floor you, if you have never experienced little bumps along the way....kinda like anti-venom for snake bites.
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4PackGirl
14 years ago
little bumps are no big deal & are to be expected. my kid isn't bothered a bit by a little pushin & shovin - that's just kids being kids. his bully went above & beyond that. he picked him up & threw him to the ground in a fit of rage one day. and when i say ground i mean the blacktop. he & my son are the same age, height, & weight. he's a little terrorist who until i turned into 'mama bear' was beatin the tar out of a bunch of kids. he's not your 'normal' bully - he's got major psychological problems according to his grandfather. and now magically since he and his parents were threatened with expulsion & basically ordered to stay away from my son & the rest of the kids whose parents reported him, we've had no problems.

i absolutely get what you're saying, digsy. we have pussified this society at an alarming rate. that balance is hard to find as a parent. last year, i did the 'stand up for yourself & don't let some other kid push you around' thing - it didn't work. this year - i took action.
digsthepack
14 years ago
This nation is producing the equivalent of the Frenchmen who gave their country and women to the Germans without a fight....just so they could maintain their cafe lifestyle and leisure....instead of the resistance fighters (men and women) who risked their lives to shelter Jews, help the allies, and generally cause havoc for the German occupiers because they had principles larger than themselves.

Who got laid after the war?? Yep...the resistance fighters.

We are a society stuck in the Peter Pam mindset of the baby boomers in power...and have essentially eliminated any meaningful rites of passage for our children...particularly boys...to signify their entrance into adulthood, with the expected, accompanying adult behavior.

How many 30 and 40 somethings that you know are, in many ways, stuck at 18? Kinda scary!
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
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