IronMan
15 years ago

I remember last season many 'experts' were saying Marvin Lewis had lost his team. Meaning they just weren't listening to him and believing into his system.

I think Mike McCarthy is having that issue now. Jenkins and Woodson have both spoken out against the new scheme. Kampman I don't think much likes it. Jolly basically thinks his actions with that penalty were okay. I say he thinks they were okay because he said he's not going to change. I would expect a well disciplined player to say "i need to play smarter than that", instead of hearing him say "it didn't cost us the game".

On offense we have so many dumb holding calls. I counted two in the first half that weren't even called. Some say you can call holding on every play. I'm talking these two holding's were change the players direction holding.

I think he has the ability to take the team back. However, I think he's too stubborn to adapt to what he needs to in order to do so.

"Wade" wrote:



I must have missed it. WHen did Jenkins complain?

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/68436002.html 
PackFanWithTwins
15 years ago
I think they are both frustrated, that against MN, they were asked to not rush as hard, while watching for Peterson. I would have to watch the game again, but I think they do less creative stunts and things because they want to control the lanes to stop the run.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Zero2Cool
15 years ago

If you don't think he's lost the team. Check out the penalties and the comments being said in the locker room.

He's lost or at least losing his grip on this team. A coach in control of his team doesn't average more than 8 penalties a game. Mind you, the same penalties each week for nearly four seasons.

I'll also add in, he needs to coach to his teams strengths. Short, quick passing game.

"evad04" wrote:


OMFG!

OMFG!

OMFG!

JEsus F'in CHRIST!

Zero -- if you have the power, please find a film tape of last night's game with a camera angle that shows the entire fiield.

Then we can have a little Cover 2 defense lesson.

Listen here boys, and listen closely: this game is too complex for simple statements like he needs to get rid of the ball quicker or that we need to emphasize the short passing game. In the first half, the Vikes almost exclusively rushed four guys, and behind that ran a Tampa 2 like zone shell. That means there were 4 rushers, and 7 in coverage. A few of the sacks against Rodgers in the first half were instances where there were at least 2 or 3 of those passing options in intermediate-short passing routes (hitches, curls, flats, comeback routes, etc.). Rodgers would go through his progression. Nothing would be there. Result -- sack, or incompletion.

The idea that we were just looking "downfield" and that McCarthy coached a piss poor first half is I PROMISE ON MY FUCKING MOTHER'S LIFE a simple, easy, quick way out of the situation that isn't indicative of the truth: it's a fucking cop out, guys.

What changed, is that in the second half, it started to work. We were able to hit up the cover 2 in the seems. We were able to spread the ball around. McCarthy talks about "rhythm" in the offense. Don't be so quick to brush that aside. In the first half we had no rhythm. Simply, we couldn't string together many successful plays in a row. It was a combination of the play being called, Minnesota reacting damn near perfect (getting pressure with four, locking up the receiving targets with EXCELLENT underneath coverage), and Green Bay failing to execute. If ANYTHING we should have tried to get the ball downfield in the seams of Cover 2 MORE in the first half. This idea that McCarthy was stubborn and trying to force it downfield in the first half (and thus why our offense was anemic) is completely fallacious. Barring one stupid Rodgers bomb off play action (the one into double coverage) we actually seemed to try pretty hard to develop the quick passing game. It wasn't there in the first half. Not everything is an issue of playcalling! Sometimes defenses simply "click" and good things happen for them. Are we forgetting this is the game of football we are watching?

In the second half things worked, but it isn't as simple as saying "why weren't we doing that in the first half! wahhh... fire McCarthy." That is such an eerily simplistic analysis of a game that, let's be honest, to play or coach at this level requires a substantial knowledge that we the superfans don't know. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand it -- hell, I think we should. But I can promise you, things like "we need the quick passing game" fail on all accounts -- like the account of reality. The short stuff is hard to find against a Cover 2 defense -- particularly when it is a good defense. But that didn't stop us from trying to get the quick passing game going. I promise you, go back and watch the game.

/rant

I need a fucking drink. And it's 11 am.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:

You need to calm down. Immediately.

Penalties that we have every week, that are said to be cleaned up. Coaching failure.

What short passing game includes 5 and 7 step drops? What I'm saying is we need more 3 step drop passing plays. AKA, a short quick passing game. Does that mean I think I'm a head coach? offensive coordinator? No. It means that I think we should use that as we've done in the past with great success.

mm says ar is very coach able. Yet, there were a few times he had a dumpoff and held the ball too long and took a sack instead of passing it short or running for it. (I think he didn't run much because of his foot issue from the last two weeks).
UserPostedImage
evad04
15 years ago

I think they are both frustrated, that against MN, they were asked to not rush as hard, while watching for Peterson. I would have to watch the game again, but I think they do less creative stunts and things because they want to control the lanes to stop the run.

"PackFanWithTwins" wrote:


DING DING DING DING! That's how you beat the Vikings. If you let them run on you, there's just about no chance at winning. Make stopping the run a point of emphasis, try to mix up the playcalling on defense (not simply BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ) and play better in the one on one's. Well, that doesn't always work when you're playing a very good team. Minnie's offense is for real. And Favre played beautifully again. Hurts to say, but it's categorically true.
William Henderson didn't have to run people over. His preferred method was levitation.
"I'm a reasonable man, get off my case."
Zero2Cool
15 years ago
Capers said the blitzing was called less because of the lack of depth at safety.

Favre is also one of the best at beating the blitz and I think statistically it supports he's tops in the league at doing so. Blitzing doesn't help if you're not getting home. The players didn't get home when they were unleashed.
UserPostedImage
evad04
15 years ago

If you don't think he's lost the team. Check out the penalties and the comments being said in the locker room.

He's lost or at least losing his grip on this team. A coach in control of his team doesn't average more than 8 penalties a game. Mind you, the same penalties each week for nearly four seasons.

I'll also add in, he needs to coach to his teams strengths. Short, quick passing game.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:


OMFG!

OMFG!

OMFG!

JEsus F'in CHRIST!

Zero -- if you have the power, please find a film tape of last night's game with a camera angle that shows the entire fiield.

Then we can have a little Cover 2 defense lesson.

Listen here boys, and listen closely: this game is too complex for simple statements like he needs to get rid of the ball quicker or that we need to emphasize the short passing game. In the first half, the Vikes almost exclusively rushed four guys, and behind that ran a Tampa 2 like zone shell. That means there were 4 rushers, and 7 in coverage. A few of the sacks against Rodgers in the first half were instances where there were at least 2 or 3 of those passing options in intermediate-short passing routes (hitches, curls, flats, comeback routes, etc.). Rodgers would go through his progression. Nothing would be there. Result -- sack, or incompletion.

The idea that we were just looking "downfield" and that McCarthy coached a piss poor first half is I PROMISE ON MY FUCKING MOTHER'S LIFE a simple, easy, quick way out of the situation that isn't indicative of the truth: it's a fucking cop out, guys.

What changed, is that in the second half, it started to work. We were able to hit up the cover 2 in the seems. We were able to spread the ball around. McCarthy talks about "rhythm" in the offense. Don't be so quick to brush that aside. In the first half we had no rhythm. Simply, we couldn't string together many successful plays in a row. It was a combination of the play being called, Minnesota reacting damn near perfect (getting pressure with four, locking up the receiving targets with EXCELLENT underneath coverage), and Green Bay failing to execute. If ANYTHING we should have tried to get the ball downfield in the seams of Cover 2 MORE in the first half. This idea that McCarthy was stubborn and trying to force it downfield in the first half (and thus why our offense was anemic) is completely fallacious. Barring one stupid Rodgers bomb off play action (the one into double coverage) we actually seemed to try pretty hard to develop the quick passing game. It wasn't there in the first half. Not everything is an issue of playcalling! Sometimes defenses simply "click" and good things happen for them. Are we forgetting this is the game of football we are watching?

In the second half things worked, but it isn't as simple as saying "why weren't we doing that in the first half! wahhh... fire McCarthy." That is such an eerily simplistic analysis of a game that, let's be honest, to play or coach at this level requires a substantial knowledge that we the superfans don't know. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand it -- hell, I think we should. But I can promise you, things like "we need the quick passing game" fail on all accounts -- like the account of reality. The short stuff is hard to find against a Cover 2 defense -- particularly when it is a good defense. But that didn't stop us from trying to get the quick passing game going. I promise you, go back and watch the game.

/rant

I need a fucking drink. And it's 11 am.

"evad04" wrote:

You need to calm down. Immediately.

Penalties that we have every week, that are said to be cleaned up. Coaching failure.

What short passing game includes 5 and 7 step drops? What I'm saying is we need more 3 step drop passing plays. AKA, a short quick passing game. Does that mean I think I'm a head coach? offensive coordinator? No. It means that I think we should use that as we've done in the past with great success.

Mike McCarthy says Aaron Rodgers is very coach able. Yet, there were a few times he had a dumpoff and held the ball too long and took a sack instead of passing it short or running for it. (I think he didn't run much because of his foot issue from the last two weeks).

"Zero2Cool" wrote:


Go back and watch the first half. You'll see PLENTY of 3 step drops. Dude, what I'm arguing here is this: you can't just say we need more ____ without taking into account REALITY. The reality is we did try to get the short passing game working. If anything, we needed to attack the deep middle or the buzz zones (whatever terminology you're comfortable with here -- the space inbetween the CBs flat route coverage and the two safeties deep half zone coverage). That is admittedly difficult to do, though, because it takes time to develop -- and the four man pass rush of the Vikes was in our face.

I'm telling you, the short passing game was attempted a number of times in the first half. It's just, when something doesn't work we don't allow for the possibility that a) the Vikes covered things well -- hell, played well! b) sometimes our players don't execute c) rhythm/momentum is a real veritable force in football and in the first half we couldn't find any.

And I'll settle when I darn please. Nothing wrong with getting fired up. For the record I'm trying to bait dfoster into a post with the whole "OMFG! JESUS CHRIST!" thing. That's how he responded to me once -- only he didn't follow it with any substantive thoughts. He just checked out of the thread and left me scratching my head. As you'll see, I have no such intention of doing the same. I'm all about (as I see it) raising the level of debate. I'm about going back into the play and seeing what works and doesn't work.

And finally -- are you really trying to make the argument that it's McCarthy's fault that Rodgers didn't run for the first down on that sack play in the first half? Has it come to this, dudes? LOL. I'm laughing.

Go back to last night, after the sack play: "Man! I can't believe McCarthy didn't coach Rodgers up correctly! He obviously should have run it! Man, McCarthy! What are you doing with Rodgers!"

The QB makes a suspect play and we go after the coach. And you wonder why I'm a little salty/spazzy today. Good grief.
William Henderson didn't have to run people over. His preferred method was levitation.
"I'm a reasonable man, get off my case."
Zero2Cool
15 years ago
If you want to raise the level of debate, don't put words in my (or others) mouth. It's only going to degrade the level of discussion. I'd love to respond, but you haven't given me anything to respond with other than misunderstanding what I said. even though I put it down plain as day. At least, I thought I did.

You're saying things that have no ground. You're over reacting upon others alleged over reacting. I never said because of this one play. I said there were several times I seen this ... etc. I've never said because of this ONE PLAY we need to FIRE THE COACH.

That type of comment makes me not even want to read what you said anymore.

You're obviously looking for a fight. I'm not biting. If you want to DEBATE, I'm down for that. When you can calm down and be rational, we can debate. Until, read what I said and understand where I'm coming from WITHOUT putting words in my mouth.
UserPostedImage
IronMan
15 years ago
Didn't want to post another MM thread, so I will post it here:

Bedard talks about MM 

[mp3 width=400 height=20]http://wssp.radiotown.com/audio/doug/110209dmgregbedard.mp3[/mp3]
evad04
15 years ago

If you want to raise the level of debate, don't put words in my (or others) mouth. It's only going to degrade the level of discussion. I'd love to respond, but you haven't given me anything to respond with other than misunderstanding what I said. even though I put it down plain as day. At least, I thought I did.

You're saying things that have no ground. You're over reacting upon others alleged over reacting. I never said because of this one play. I said there were several times I seen this ... etc. I've never said because of this ONE PLAY we need to FIRE THE COACH.

That type of comment makes me not even want to read what you said anymore.

You're obviously looking for a fight. I'm not biting. If you want to DEBATE, I'm down for that. When you can calm down and be rational, we can debate. Until, read what I said and understand where I'm coming from WITHOUT putting words in my mouth.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:


Let me save us all a little time. Nearly all of my posts have been directed indirectly towards, well, the Ironman's of the board. When I right a novel of a post, I'm not literally replying to only your words. I understand where you'd thus be confused and think I'm coming at you.

Honestly zero, I'm not. I'm not accusing YOU of having the attitude that we need to fire the coach. I'm not coming at YOU.

I apologize because my intention isn't to fight with anyone. I'm just extremely salty at how misguided a lot of the critiques are. I've said a lot in my recent posts that I'd vehemently defend again.

Here's my challenge: find the number of 3 step drops and 5-7 step drops from last night. When someone has done that then we can debate the merits of each as they pertain to a) the defense scheme b) how the offense is trying to attack the defense c) the down and distance d) any more variables anyone can think of.

But, again, I promise you -- this thing isn't as simple as we need more three step drops. And, I know, that's not what your saying. You, zero, aren't saying that all we need are more 3 step drops and we'd be winning the superbowl. I'm NOT trying to put words in your mouth. I am basically doing a Reply:All to the asshats who seem to think that we're one adjustment or "better playcalling/chewing out players who commit penalties" away from greatness.
William Henderson didn't have to run people over. His preferred method was levitation.
"I'm a reasonable man, get off my case."
Zero2Cool
15 years ago
You quoted me and I didn't see the distinction of saying others. I seen 'zero' in there on two posts in which I was quoted.

I am saying if mm doesn't get this team back on track, he needs his position evaluated at the end of the year. I even said, not right now, firing him now is not the right thing.

I'm not saying CAN THE SEASON SCREW IT! I think we still have a chance, but the coach needs to coach better or for two years in a row we're going to see the same problems again. That's one issue I have with him. Another is the OL scheme. I've harped on this for a long time. When we lost Jeff Jagsawhatever, I feel we should have ditched the ZBS too. We don't have anyone who's an expert teaching the scheme. Hell, Campen didn't even play in the scheme he's trying to teach.
UserPostedImage
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beast (19h) : I feel like it's loading at the top of the next minute, or something like that.
beast (19h) : Also the thanks/heart takes FOREVER to load, and posting in the shout box takes three times FOREVER!
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wpr (20h) : I don't know what you IT guys call it but the page loading is very slow for me today.
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Zero2Cool (23-Jul) : Still working through SSL cert issues
wpr (23-Jul) : Glad to be back
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dfosterf (22-Jul) : Can tell you are having a fun day Kev
Zero2Cool (22-Jul) : Yep, I had to manually move them. It'll fix itself after more posts.
Mucky Tundra (22-Jul) : Same deal with the songs/videos thread, says you replied last but when I go there it's what I posted earlier is last
Zero2Cool (22-Jul) : I had to manually move three posts.
Mucky Tundra (22-Jul) : But when I go it, Martha's is the last reply
Mucky Tundra (22-Jul) : Still a little screwy; it shows on the main forum that you were the last person to reply to the Jenkins trade thread
Zero2Cool (22-Jul) : Host issues, been crazy day
Mucky Tundra (22-Jul) : Connect 4?
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beast (22-Jul) : Packershome going to the Whiteout unis again
Zero2Cool (21-Jul) : Oh wait, they got Cam Ward. 1st overall right? haha oops
Zero2Cool (21-Jul) : They could send Packers a 1st for a QB they are familiar with
Zero2Cool (21-Jul) : Titans QB Will Levis to have season-ending shoulder surgery
Zero2Cool (19-Jul) : Their season did kind of start there, so 🤷
dfosterf (19-Jul) : Eagles put an engraved Brazil flag on their super bowl rings
Zero2Cool (18-Jul) : Benton unsigned no more
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dfosterf (14-Jul) : *analysis* gettin' old
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