Martha Careful
7 months ago
The misses (and foul balls) on 1st and 2nd Picks is starting to take its toll

RCon14 wrote

It looks like Lukas Van Ness isn’t close
The second-year defensive end looks firmly placed as DE4 to start the season.

By rcon14 Sep 10, 2024, 9:39am CDT 18 Comments / 1 New

A few weeks back after his nice pre-season outing against the Cleveland Browns, I broke down the pass-rushing snaps from that game for Green Bay Packers second-round defensive end Lukas Van Ness and came away much less impressed with his overall performance than I did on first watch. The same strengths were apparent. Van Ness is very strong and has the prototypical defensive end build, and you can see it on tape when his bull rush connects. Unfortunately, the same problems were still glaring. Van Ness looks very stiff as a pass rusher, frequently getting washed out when trying to run the loop, and looking uncomfortable with his hand usage, leading him to regularly rely on his bull rush, which while good, is not a recipe for consistent success at the NFL level.

At this point in time, it looks like the Packers agree with a more bearish assessment of where Van Ness is. Van Ness was a distant fourth in the defensive snap counts for Packers defensive ends. Preston Smith led the unit with 54, then Rashan Gary at 49. JJ Enagbare was the clear third defensive end at 30, and then Van Ness pulled up the rear at 19. And this was not a game where the starters were providing a ton of production or Enagbare had a breakout game. Gary collected one sack, but he had a disappointing 12.5% pressure rate, per NFL Next Gen Stats. Preston Smith had a pressure rate of just 7.1%, and Enagbare of just 6.3%. The Packers' defensive end group was almost non-existent in the game, as the Eagles admittedly good offensive tackles completely shut them down. What was Van Ness’ pressure rate? 0%. Now, Van Ness only had 11 pass-rushing snaps in the game, so it isn’t a meaningful sample, but Van Ness did not register a single pressure (though he did register a stop in the run game, he’s still useful there!).

I do want to give Van Ness some credit, as depending on the system being used, this one could be considered a pressure.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1833506563744494065 

Then there’s this one, where Hurts slips past LVN and then ices the game by truck sticking Stokes back to the States.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1833507240436756691 

Van Ness still has some usefulness as a run defender, but with Green Bay playing mostly single-high shells, that skillset is just far less useful under Jeff Hafley than it was in the two-high quarters/post-snap spin world that Joe Barry lived in.

The rest of the pass rush snaps from Friday are a combination of some quick-game snaps where pressure isn’t really able to be generated or Van Ness bull-rushing into Jordan Mailata and getting swallowed up. No one in the Packers EDGE room had much success this week, and so that is less the issue for me, but that the Packers coaching staff clearly favors Enagbare over Van Ness is not a great sign for his future. Enagbare has been a nice surprise, as most Day 3 defensive ends produce little-to-nothing, but his pressure rates have been more fine than actually good (12-15%).

The idea for Van Ness as a project behind two veteran players was more akin to Rashan Gary, but Gary produced pressure rates of 16% after a semi-redshirt rookie season (where his pressure rate was about 13%). Van Ness would need to literally double his pressure rate from his rookie to get to Gary’s rate. Van Ness' rookie season pressure rate compares to mostly off-ball linebackers and nose tackles, and while it was only just one game against a very good tackle duo, it hasn’t been a pretty start to 2024, and it looks like the coaching staff doesn’t see a breakout coming soon either.


Go Packers!!!!
bboystyle
7 months ago
ill wait for judgement by week 6
beast
7 months ago
It's one game into his second year...

Favre, Rodgers, Love, Adams, Nelson, Gary and so many others looked like bums at this point into their careers as well...

Like it or not, Gute drafts for most upside potential, which often means they're not as ready to go, as they would of been drafted sooner, and they need some time to develop.

Wyatt is a year further into his career, also a 1st rounder and probably going to remain a backup, as he's not going to beat out Clark and he's not a NT so he has to be backup penetrator at this point. But we don't hear about him.
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
7 months ago
It's like folks didn't learn from Rashan Gary. And in Lukas Van Ness situation he went from OLB as rookie to DE in 2nd year and we lose our collective minds.

Anyhow, it's kind of fascinating how I read Gutekunst draft doing good, and then he's awful.

Three years people, it takes three years to evaluate a draft and drafted individual.
UserPostedImage
Martha Careful
7 months ago

Like it or not, Gute drafts for most upside potential, which often means they're not as ready to go, as they would of been drafted sooner, and they need some time to develop.

Originally Posted by: beast 

High ceiling are great, I also want a higher floor, and right now he should be doing alot better than the number 4 guy at his position

It's like folks didn't learn from Rashan Gary.
...
Three years people, it takes three years to evaluate a draft and drafted individual.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

I am still not sold on Gary, especially given the $$$$. He did very little Sunday albeit against an All-Pro. But if you are supposed to be a stud, i expect more than just one sack after the OT had stopped because he thought the whistle had blown.

I expect more/sooner. If we have to wait 3 years for guys, we will never have a champion ship caliber roster.

Go Packers!!!!
Zero2Cool
7 months ago

High ceiling are great, I also want a higher floor, and right now he should be doing alot better than the number 4 guy at his position
I am still not sold on Gary, especially given the $$$$. He did very little Sunday albeit against an All-Pro. But if you are supposed to be a stud, i expect more than just one sack after the OT had stopped because he thought the whistle had blown.

Originally Posted by: Martha Careful 


I thought he had a decent first at DE from being OLB last several years. He got some pressure and even got that sack that I think forced a punt.

I expect more/sooner. If we have to wait 3 years for guys, we will never have a champion ship caliber roster.

Originally Posted by: Martha Careful 


Those picks in the top half of round one, absolutely need more from then sooner than later. Guys in the 20's or so I can see being projects, but you can't load up your team with projects. Which is what it seems Gutekunst does with 1st round picks.

Bottom line though, bottom or top of the round, other teams are finding guys who can contribute in year one or year two. I don't know if teams are doing it consistently or if it's just where scouting is at and it's a miss. I just don't feel the Packers are missing more than other teams.

I'm with you though that you can't keep burning (harsh word) 1st round picks on projects. That OL we drafted, I expect him to be starting by mid point of the season. I don't care where, but you can't use 1st round on an OL just for him to sit a year. Lukas Van Ness showed good things in year one as a rookie OLB. Now he's DE and has to get his crap together. Others have done it, so he needs to as well.
UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
7 months ago
That's it. Get him off the team. Have him clean his locker out right now.

Oh wait. He's 23 years old. The Packers are still going to pay him. His cap hit this year is less than $4 million. The dead cap hit is more than $14 million. Next year he will only cost $4.7 million and have a dead cap hit of $10 million. His pay ranks him as the 42nd DE.

I guess that means we as fans can complain about him but he is not going anywhere for at least two season. Perhaps by then he will get the hang of what he has to do in order to succeed in the NFL.

Like it or not most players need a few years time before they meet their full potential.
UserPostedImage
bboystyle
7 months ago
Lets just relax. Gary is a top player in his position. Week one on a crappy field in a new system doesnt tell how his year will come. Same with Van Ness.

Week 1 always brings out the worse in us fans. Look at all the QBs in week one. 99% of them looked rusty and out of tune. No one is clamoring for them to step it up or they are a waste of money. Give it time. Our players will gel. No team comes out of week 1 firing on all cylinders all the way to the super bowl.
go.pack.go.
7 months ago


Wyatt is a year further into his career, also a 1st rounder and probably going to remain a backup, as he's not going to beat out Clark and he's not a NT so he has to be backup penetrator at this point. But we don't hear about him.

Originally Posted by: beast 



You are correct, but Wyatt was at least showing fairly consistent flashes in pass rush opportunities.

As previously stated, it’s only 1 game into his second year, but we need to start seeing some more flashes.
UserPostedImage
beast
7 months ago

High ceiling are great, I also want a higher floor

Originally Posted by: Martha Careful 


And I want to eat whatever I like without having to worry about gaining weight or it being negative for me in some way...

But sadly that's not the reality that we live in.

I thought he had a decent first at DE from being OLB last several years. He got some pressure and even got that sack that I think forced a punt.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 


Meh, 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE are mostly the exact same positions other than maybe the starting stance and when you have to drop your hips. I'm not going to give him that excuse, especially with his DT background, it should be more in his comfort zone, not less.

If we're going to give Van Ness a switching position excuse, I think it should be from being a college DT, to now playing the edge rusher, as even his last year, when he supposedly switched to Edge Rushers, still about half of his snaps come from the interior DT spots.

So Van Ness basically only has 1.5 years (plus one game) at the edge rusher role.



UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
packerfanoutwest (2h) : Packers General Manager Brian Gutekunst says Green Bay’s roster can win, even without adding anyone in the draft.
Zero2Cool (2h) : It's a poor design. New site has SignalR like our gameday chat
wpr (2h) : Ah today's Shout was very quick to post.
wpr (2h) : now 3
Zero2Cool (3h) : Who? What?
beast (12h) : What is he supposed to say? He doesn't want players currently on the team?
Martha Careful (16h) : meh
Zero2Cool (20h) : Sounds like Walker and Wyatt will be with Packers for beyond 2026
Zero2Cool (20h) : It's so awesome.
Zero2Cool (20h) : new site fan shout post fast
wpr (21-Apr) : Slow posting in Fan shout.
wpr (21-Apr) : Only 4
wpr (21-Apr) : Only 4
Zero2Cool (21-Apr) : If only we had a topic to read about and discuss it. That's something new website must have!!!
dfosterf (21-Apr) : Justice Musqueda over at Acme Packing put up an excellent synopsis of the Packers 1st round options this am
wpr (19-Apr) : 5 days
beast (18-Apr) : 6 days
wpr (17-Apr) : 7 days
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : sounds like Packers don't get good compensation, Jaire staying
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Nobody coming up with a keep, but at x amount
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Trade, cut or keep
dfosterf (16-Apr) : that from Jaire
dfosterf (16-Apr) : My guess is the Packers floated the concept of a reworked contract via his agent and agent got a f'
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Yes, and that is why I think Rob worded it how he did. Rather than say "agent"
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Same laws apply. Agent must present such an offer to Jaire. Cannot accept or reject without presenting it
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : I'm thinking that is why Rob worded it how he did.
dfosterf (16-Apr) : The Packers can certainly still make the offer to the agent
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Laws of agency and definition of fiduciary responsibility
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Jaire is open to a reduced contract without Jaire's permission
dfosterf (16-Apr) : The agent would arguably violate the law if he were to tell the Packers
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : That someone ... likely the agent.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : So, Jaire has not been offered nor rejected a pay reduction, but someone says he'd decline.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovksy says t was direct communication with someone familiar with Jaire’s line of thinking at that moment.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovsky just replied to me a bit ago. Jaire hasn't said it.
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Of course, that depends on the definition of "we"
dfosterf (16-Apr) : We have been told that they haven't because he wouldn't accept it. I submit we don't know that
dfosterf (16-Apr) : What is the downside in making a calculated reduced offer to Jaire?
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers are receiving interest in Jaire Alexander but a trade is not imminent
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Jalen Ramsey wants to be traded. He's never happy is he?
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : two 1sts in 2022 and two 2nd's in 2023 and 2024
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers had fortunate last three drafts.
dfosterf (15-Apr) : I may have to move
dfosterf (15-Apr) : My wife just told the ancient Japanese sushi dude not enough rice under his fish
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I think a dozen is what I need
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Go fund me for this purpose just might work. A dozen nurses show up at 1265 to provide mental health assistance.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Maybe send a crew of Angels to the Packers draft room on draft day.
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I am the Angel that gets visited.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Visiting Angels has a pretty good reputation
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : what
Martha Careful (14-Apr) : WINNING IT, not someone else losing it. The best victory though was re-uniting with his wife
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 3:25 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Recent Topics
1h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

17-Apr / Random Babble / wpr

16-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

13-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

12-Apr / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

11-Apr / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Rockmolder

2-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

2-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

1-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

1-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

31-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

30-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

29-Mar / Random Babble / wpr

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.