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wpr
  • wpr
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4 years ago

Again this is well and good in theory. Unfortunately, it's not true that having a good resume will get you the same opportunities. Research shows that simply having a black or ethnic-sounding name makes it much less likely that one will get a callback or interview for a position even when the candidate is exceptionally qualified for the position.

Originally Posted by: earthquake 



When I was in college in the 70's one of my professors was telling us not only do men get promotions more often than women, whites more than blacks, slender more than pudgy, men with a full head of hair more than bald. And those who are taller more so than those who are short.

One of my classmates and I were discussing the issue of height. He said it surprised him. I'm 5'9" which is average. I told him I had been keenly aware of the height issue all 4 years of college. I told him that I was consistently the shortest or one of the 2 or 3 shortest men in every single business class and closer to average in non business classes. He was 6'3" I think. He said at his large suburban high school he was one of the tallest 4-5 guys in the school but as he looked around the room he was only average. It was a surprise to him.
( Started at one college and transferred to another and my height or the lack thereof was the same at both colleges.)

I am short, more than a little pudgy and bald so I would never make it very far without owning my own business.

I don't mean to imply that I have it rougher than a short black woman who is overweight. Simply that society has known about the inadequacies in hiring and promotion for a long long time.



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earthquake
4 years ago

When I was in college in the 70's one of my professors was telling us not only do men get promotions more often than women, whites more than blacks, slender more than pudgy, men with a full head of hair more than bald. And those who are taller more so than those who are short.

One of my classmates and I were discussing the issue of height. He said it surprised him. I'm 5'9" which is average. I told him I had been keenly aware of the height issue all 4 years of college. I told him that I was consistently the shortest or one of the 2 or 3 shortest men in every single business class and closer to average in non business classes. He was 6'3" I think. He said at his large suburban high school he was one of the tallest 4-5 guys in the school but as he looked around the room he was only average. It was a surprise to him.
( Started at one college and transferred to another and my height or the lack thereof was the same at both colleges.)

I am short, more than a little pudgy and bald so I would never make it very far without owning my own business.

I don't mean to imply that I have it rougher than a short black woman who is overweight. Simply that society has known about the inadequacies in hiring and promotion for a long long time.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



Absolutely, the analytics of hiring and promoting workers is an interesting field of research. Those who are viewed as attractive, outgoing, charismatic, etc, are often promoted and hired at higher rates regardless of or even in spite of merit. Sex, race, physical appearance, and personality type (and by this I mean introversion vs extroversion more than whether one is an asshole) are all components that factor into one's trajectory in professional life. Hard work, intelligence, and ambition are of course extremely important as well, but are hardly the only factors in play.
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beast
4 years ago
I don't love this solution, especially don't even like the compensation (two 3rd rounders?... seems a bit desperate).

But I feel like the real problem is nepotism (itt more about who you know), and the owners lack of knowledge...

Yeah, I said owners lack of knowledge, yes it's their team and their money, so they should get to spend it the way they want, but sometimes their choices for GM or Head coach just seem extremely questionable before they're even hired.

Bruce Allen to the Redskins certainly comes to mind, I mean maybe if you want him as an office guy leading you to get a new stadium, which is supposively why he lasted so long, but there is no dang reason for him to be in charge of actual football items IMO.

Rex Ryan (entertaining as hell, respect the man defenses), but hiring him as head coach of the Bills was clearly a mistake. The Bills had a dominating 4-3 defense, Ryan doesn't do 4-3 and those players didn't fit well into a 3-4. And the Bills problem was offense, and Ryan doesn't do offense.

The again, from what I remember, it's almost a surprise when some of these guys get in... kirk LaFleur broke into the NFL because there was a surprise opening and a coach he used to work with kept mentioning him... and LaFleur brother broke into the NFL easier because of LaFleur.


But it is disappointing, that there are a good number of questionable GMs, but I think there might be (I'm not sure, but I think there might be) only one non-white male.

As for compensation, I think the compensation, should be cash... as in, hey if you hire a non-white guy for head coach or GM, we'll pay ____ amount to cover their salary, so taking a chance on them cost less to you. Not a football advantage.
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wpr
  • wpr
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4 years ago

I don't love this solution, especially don't even like the compensation (two 3rd rounders?... seems a bit desperate).

But I feel like the real problem is nepotism (itt more about who you know), and the owners lack of knowledge...

Yeah, I said owners lack of knowledge, yes it's their team and their money, so they should get to spend it the way they want, but sometimes their choices for GM or Head coach just seem extremely questionable before they're even hired.

Bruce Allen to the Redskins certainly comes to mind, I mean maybe if you want him as an office guy leading you to get a new stadium, which is supposively why he lasted so long, but there is no dang reason for him to be in charge of actual football items IMO.

Rex Ryan (entertaining as hell, respect the man defenses), but hiring him as head coach of the Bills was clearly a mistake. The Bills had a dominating 4-3 defense, Ryan doesn't do 4-3 and those players didn't fit well into a 3-4. And the Bills problem was offense, and Ryan doesn't do offense.

The again, from what I remember, it's almost a surprise when some of these guys get in... kirk LaFleur broke into the NFL because there was a surprise opening and a coach he used to work with kept mentioning him... and LaFleur brother broke into the NFL easier because of LaFleur.


But it is disappointing, that there are a good number of questionable GMs, but I think there might be (I'm not sure, but I think there might be) only one non-white male.

As for compensation, I think the compensation, should be cash... as in, hey if you hire a non-white guy for head coach or GM, we'll pay ____ amount to cover their salary, so taking a chance on them cost less to you. Not a football advantage.

Originally Posted by: beast 



Da bares have been a classic example. After Papa Halas had to step down they hired Jim Dooley, Abe Gibron, Jack Pardee who I thought could be decent coaches but then my all time favorite bares coach - Neill Armstrong. I was laughing when they pulled this off. Likewise I was upset when Ditka replaced him.

I think you are on to something with the monetization. Instead of giving a team cash maybe they could raise the cap by a set amount.
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KRK
  • KRK
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4 years ago

I don't love this solution, especially don't even like the compensation (two 3rd rounders?... seems a bit desperate).

But I feel like the real problem is nepotism (itt more about who you know), and the owners lack of knowledge...

Yeah, I said owners lack of knowledge, yes it's their team and their money, so they should get to spend it the way they want, but sometimes their choices for GM or Head coach just seem extremely questionable before they're even hired.

Bruce Allen to the Redskins certainly comes to mind, I mean maybe if you want him as an office guy leading you to get a new stadium, which is supposively why he lasted so long, but there is no dang reason for him to be in charge of actual football items IMO.

Rex Ryan (entertaining as hell, respect the man defenses), but hiring him as head coach of the Bills was clearly a mistake. The Bills had a dominating 4-3 defense, Ryan doesn't do 4-3 and those players didn't fit well into a 3-4. And the Bills problem was offense, and Ryan doesn't do offense.

Originally Posted by: beast 

Excellent points.

For many of these owners, their NFL team is a frolic....a self-actualization exercise. It is an alternative to golf or fishing.

Just because someone makes a lot of money at something doesn't mean they know what they are doing or talking about in another field, be it football or politics.

In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
+1
Zero2Cool
4 years ago

But I feel like the real problem is nepotism (itt more about who you know), and the owners lack of knowledge...

Originally Posted by: beast 


As the saying goes, "It's Not What You Know. It's Who You Know". Is this a problem? Only if the person is a certain sex or gender.

I've been passed over for jobs because the hiring person chose someone they knew. Them are the breaks, that's how it goes sometimes and it sucks.
The equality conversation is one that I feel is very challenging because it encapsulates so much. We can naively look at analytics and assume that tells the whole story. It doesn't. It tells the story the person/s procuring the statistics wants to tell. Throwing studies around and what not is fruitless and it shows a lack of understanding of the root of the problem. And also the severity of the problem.

As a business owner, I wouldn't give a rats ass if you're male, female, straight, trans, white, black, native, etc ... my primary concerns are going to be, are you good culture fit? Are you coachable? Are you knowledgeable in your field? Off the top of my head, those would be the things I would focus on. That's easy though, right? Yeah, of course you would hire the person who would best fit what you're seeking. But, what happens when it comes time to promote one person and two equally qualified people apply? If your deciding factor is both are equally knowledgeable but one has a better attitude -- you better hope the better attitude is held by a minority otherwise you'll get a lawsuit.

I want to go into depth on this, but the last time I did that, no one really gave a damn. I will say this. We need to raise our children better and without worry they are going to be discriminated against. If we raise our kids believing they have an excuse (true or not), they will wreck their head wondering if that built-in excuse is why they didn't get the job. No one should be anyone's underdog. As I tell my girls, don't let anyone get in the way of your success by giving them a reason to deny it.

Regarding race, I encourage people to watch the movie 13th. I believe they kind of went a little propaganda towards the end, but if you don't have your head in your ass, you can really see where the root of the problem is.

Edit, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying she's suing for sexism and not saying she wouldn't be right. I fear the loud push for equality will then steer people away from hiring women and minorities due to lawsuits. This is kind of similar to those with disabilities saying the regulations are hurting them from getting a job because employers are afraid of a lawsuit if they are terminated. I hate (momentarily) feeling like the only action is inaction because that is not actionable enough.
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Cheesey
4 years ago
See?
If you hire a woman or minority, and they aren’t doing the job, you are opening yourself to a possible law suit “you fired me because I’m a woman/ black/ gay” whatever.

Years ago I was watching a show on TV. A white police chief hired a young black man to be a cop. All during the show the black cop was messing up. The chief kept giving him break after break. Finally, the chief had no choice, and fired him. The young cop said “you’re just firing me because I’m black!”
The chief replied “no, I Hired you because you are black, I fired you because you’re a lousy cop!”

And that still goes on today.
Back in the 1970s, I was thinking of trying to become a cop. I worked in security at the time. I say an ad in the Milwaukee Journal for openings in the Milwaukee Police force.
I was getting excited about the possibility......then at the bottom of the ad :”if you are a woman or minority, apply to”
That shut down my hopes.
I guess my “white privilege” was a myth.
There are whites passed over for jobs too. And it might be because they aren’t good looking, or considered too old, or as was said, a family member or friend got the job instead.
Too many use their race or gender as a crutch as to why they didn’t get a certain job.
If race was such a big reason, then the pro sports wouldn’t have so many black players. They get picked for those jobs because they are the best qualified. They make millions of dollars doing so.
Should not as talented white guys start law suits saying they were not picked because they are white?

What ever skin color, the best qualified should be hired.
That how it SHOULD be, at least.
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Zero2Cool
4 years ago

What ever skin color, the best qualified should be hired.
That how it SHOULD be, at least.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



I believe we all think this to be true. But, how do know that's what is happening? You see, people want their analytics to support this or disprove this. The Excel wizards need their time in the spotlight.


Facetiously I pose a question based off a Tweeter comment I saw. Will the NFL be rewarding teams who have a white person playing in the secondary?
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Zero2Cool
4 years ago
Miami Marlins hire Kim Ng as MLB's as general manager. This is pretty cool!
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beast
4 years ago

As a business owner, I wouldn't give a rats ass if you're male, female, straight, trans, white, black, native, etc ... my primary concerns are going to be, are you good culture fit? Are you coachable? Are you knowledgeable in your field? Off the top of my head, those would be the things I would focus on. That's easy though, right? Yeah, of course you would hire the person who would best fit what you're seeking. But, what happens when it comes time to promote one person and two equally qualified people apply? If your deciding factor is both are equally knowledgeable but one has a better attitude -- you better hope the better attitude is held by a minority otherwise you'll get a lawsuit.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 


Zero2©ool for Packers Owner!?! 😋

(sorry, I accidentally hit the © and thought it looked interesting and decided to keep it lol)

Regarding race, I encourage people to watch the movie 13th.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

Interesting, you're promoting a movie called "13th" on Friday the 13th, seems like a trap lol.

Edit, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying she's suing for sexism and not saying she wouldn't be right. I fear the loud push for equality will then steer people away from hiring women and minorities due to lawsuits. This is kind of similar to those with disabilities saying the regulations are hurting them from getting a job because employers are afraid of a lawsuit if they are terminated. I hate (momentarily) feeling like the only action is inaction because that is not actionable enough.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

Ever since they fired her for (I believe) "Culture fit", I wondered what the heck they meant, especially with no leaks of more details. Usually when something like that is used for the reason, negative details about the person get leaked.

Then basically everything I've read suggesting she was absolutely amazing, and others in the NFL could learn for her...

I wondered if this was political related... and it's now come out, she was fired four days after she posted some pro-female stuff as it appears we will have the first female VP, and someone making fun of the Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference , while the owners have been Republican backers.

If this goes to court, I'm sure they'll dig up every negative they can, but so far, it seems she was fired for expressing her political beliefs. Which when and where she did such things (her own time and money or employers time and money) might be the difference of whom wins that win, also what can you prove or disprove.


But so far, I'm most surprised they haven't leaked some negative about her... usually teams seem to go off the record and leak negatives out there for the media. But so far, not a single negative thing from anyone.
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