dyeah_gb
4 years ago

Ditto to all this.

I have avoided this thread due to the bubble. Hopefully someday that bubble pops. I look forward to that day whenever it may be.

Originally Posted by: porky88 



What a joke. The judgemental projection is sickening. Police are leaving in droves. American history is being erased before our eyes. A friggin section of Seattle was taken over by a hostile mob. Lives are being destroyed but the discussion by a bunch of average adults in this off topic thread trying to make sense of all this are the problem. When the dust settles, the country will be more racist because of all of the violence and attacks on the rule of law which makes this white dude sad. My guess is the people who talk about white privilege will be happy with the evil and suffering caused by their good intentions. Unfortunately, most of the pain will fall on minorities they claim to defend
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - R. Feynman
porky88
4 years ago

What a joke. The judgemental projection is sickening. Police are leaving in droves. American history is being erased before our eyes. A friggin section of Seattle was taken over by a hostile mob. Lives are being destroyed but the discussion by a bunch of average adults in this off topic thread trying to make sense of all this are the problem. When the dust settles, the country will be more racist because of all of the violence and attacks on the rule of law which makes this white dude sad. My guess is the people who talk about white privilege will be happy with the evil and suffering caused by their good intentions. Unfortunately, most of the pain will fall on minorities they claim to defend

Originally Posted by: dyeah_gb 


To be fair, there are two bubbles. And those that reside in both tend to be the most defensive.

As I said, I hope someday both bubbles pop and we actually start looking at context and trying to understand differing perspectives/circumstances instead of digging in further.

dyeah_gb
4 years ago

To be fair, there are two bubbles. And those that reside in both tend to be the most defensive.

As I said, I hope someday both bubbles pop and we actually start looking at context and trying to understand differing perspectives/circumstances instead of digging in further.

Originally Posted by: porky88 



Agreed with your sentiment that we should all seek understanding and respect our fellow man from all parts of life. Emotion won't get us there (I need to work on this too). Critical thought and honest discussion are needed to move forward. Power seeking hucksters and politicians on both sides want to prevent that from happening.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - R. Feynman
earthquake
4 years ago
When it comes to race, average Americans absolutely are the problem. We live in a democracy, as our average population goes, we go as a nation. It's the founding principle and single greatest aspect of this country. However, on both sides of the aisle, we choose to turn our heads away from the reality of what is happening. In schools, we teach children that slavery ended in 1863 and racism ended with Martin Luther King Jr. In the south, we glamorize confederate leaders (literal traitors who fought for the right to own slaves). We turn a blind eye to the everyday realities of racism that plague our black and brown communities. We ignore the systemic racism that has corrupted every aspect of our criminal justice system. As long as we, as a society, continue to ignore the root cause, and instead focus on the symptoms, we're going to be stuck where we're at today.

Someone, who has a rather tenuous relationship with them, mentioned facts. So let's talk a bit more about facts, and start with one in particular "Black people commit more crimes".

Firstly, it's true that black people are charged with more crimes than white people (at a rather alarming rate) but this does not necessarily mean that they commit more crimes. A good example is arrests and convictions for marijuana possession. White people use marijuana at about the same rate, actually slightly higher, compared to black people. In this case, we have an even playing field in terms of those who commit crimes. Now, if our criminal justice system was fair and equal, what we would expect to see is an equal (per-capita) rate of arrests and convictions between white and black people for pot. What do we see? On average in the USA, black people are 4x more likely to be busted for pot. In the most unequal states, such as Wisconsin, MN, IA, IL, etc, the rates are more like 8x. I'll say it again, 8 times more likely to be busted for a crime committed at roughly the same rate.

https://www.aclu.org/report/report-war-marijuana-black-and-white?redirect=criminal-law-reform/war-marijuana-black-and-white  - for anyone who wants to fact check this, you can find sources on page 30 of this report. Spoiler: most if not all sources are from official government reports.

Even if, for the sake of argument, we were to agree that black people commit crimes at a somewhat higher rate, it wouldn't come close to accounting for 8x the arrests.

So what does this tell us? Black people are just really bad at hiding their drug use? Not so much. A big reason for this is that police activity is often centralized around poor, black neighborhoods. It's not rocket science, if the majority of cops are policing a minority group (black people), you're going to see much higher arrest and conviction rates of said group.

If you look into other types of crimes, you'll find similarly disproportion rates of arrests, convictions, etc. For those of you who enjoy reading, the underlying reasons for this are outlined in great detail in Michelle Alexander's book: The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness .

Michelle does an excellent job of explaining how the criminal justice system, and it's disproportionate response to black crime, prolongs the cycle of poverty in black communities. Once you've been arrested, especially for a felony, it's much more difficult to get a job, to own property, to go to college, to dig yourself out of poverty.

https://www.prisonerhealth.org/educational-resources/factsheets-2/race-and-incarceration/  - which has further links to additional reports with cited data.

Here's some additional facts:

The USA incarcerates more people than any other nation, and it's not even close. We put about 50% more people in prison than Russia. Yes, Russia. Of our Nato allies, we lock up an absurd percentage of our population.

UserPostedImage

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/2018.html 

Here's a quote from Wikipedia : "While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners." - Almost 1/4 of prisoners in the entire world reside in the USA.

Another factoid for you fact-fans: Since the 1980's (when the War on Drugs ramped up) we've been imprisoning our population at an extremely alarming rate. It's so extreme than an entire cottage industry has popped up around it (see: privatized prisons, a topic I don't have the energy to get into).

UserPostedImage

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png 

Despite the fact that violent crime has gone down during this time period. The majority of arrests and incarcerations are for non-violent crimes, most commonly, minor drug offenses, which as we've already covered, black people are charged with at a ridiculously disproportionate level.

Whether you think race plays a major role or not, our criminal justice system is majorly fucked.
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Cheesey
  • Cheesey
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
4 years ago
“1 out of 3 black men will spend time in prison compared with 1 in 17 white men”...,..gee.....it must mean its because of us evil white people.
Yeah....facts prove that it’s just because of racism. Not because of who is committing the crimes that put them there.
Hey, here’s a novel idea! Don’t commit ANY crimes, and you won’t end up in prison!
Nah....that’s too easy if an answer.
I’ve never been in prison.....I wonder why? Could it be because I’m WHITE!?!
No.....it’s because I don’t commit CRIMES!
Committing crimes is a CHOICE. Don’t blame racism or bad cops for you ending up there. Look in the mirror and you will see who is responsible.
Once again, some can’t help themselves. They just HAVE to make excuses for criminal behavior.
How about some taking of responsibility for ones actions???
Again.....nah.....we can’t expect that!!!
UserPostedImage
all_about_da_packers
4 years ago


Hey, here’s a novel idea! Don’t commit ANY crimes, and you won’t end up in prison!
Nah....that’s too easy if an answer.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



It is too easy an answer - one doesn't simply go from committing a crime to being in jail. Certain things are considered crimes, police have to enforce, and then the justice system adjudicates. All three stages have to be considered.

Homosexuality was a crime; declaring personal bankruptcy was a crime; carrying marijuana was a crime... what is considered a crime changes. Many black people in jails currently would not be labeled criminals and sent to jail today based on what is currently considered a crime. (I skip over the research which has proven many acts considered crimes are victimless acts which, disproportionately target non-white people... but note smarter and more educated minds than you and I have commented on the problem of what is considered a "crime")

How many times has an officer pulled you over (assuming you own a car) and reduced the speeding ticket or let you off with a warning? Individual discretion of police officers come into play a lot in policing too when discussing the enforcement of laws.

Also, having the finances to hire a good lawyer is just as important in whether someone gets convicted and ends up in jail. OJ Simpson is the prime example... but not everybody has the resources to hire good attorneys like OJ. Black people are disproportionately affected by this fact.

The opioid epidemic is one example of how the criminal justice system isn't equal... there is a reason hardly anyone has been sent to prison for it - it's easier to escape criminal punishment when you incorporate and run your activities through a corporation, don't have police officers come into play on judging who to arrest or being able to see the crime occur, and the accused have the ability to hire some really expensive lawyers who know how to use the criminal justice system to benefit their client.

You don't engage in activities that were labelled crimes... good for you. But society has not afforded non-white people the luxury of having all of their victimless activities not be considered crimes.


Committing crimes is a CHOICE. Don’t blame racism or bad cops for you ending up there. Look in the mirror and you will see who is responsible.
Once again, some can’t help themselves. They just HAVE to make excuses for criminal behavior.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



Let me use a personal example about "making excuses". You say you are disabled. You know what? So is a professor I had in college, Gerald L. Gold (feel free to search him) that is quadriplegic, spends all his time in a wheel chair, has hypertension, is diabetic, has to have a personal care worker help him with basic tasks like putting on a shirt in the morning... yet you know what? He was a tenured professor, had a regular teaching course load in college, and published numerous books and articles during his career... AND he participates on forums for disabled people.

In short, he has persevered through adversity, had good employment, CREATED JOBS for others through earning research grants and publishing numerous books and articles... I have never once heard him say "geez, I wish I could work"... he refused to make excuses, took personal responsibility and contributed to society. Know what he does in retirement? Try to lobby the government to recognize personal care workers importance and support their rights through authoring articles in magazines, academic journals and speaking at conferences. Even in retirement, he is literally TRYING to support causes he believes in...

I could be a scumbag and ask "What's your excuse?" for not trying to find a way to work, or even start your own business, or even do grass roots organizing for your views and beliefs... or realize that maybe you're not a lazy guy who simply makes excuses and wants to just have people feel sorry for himself but rather have had obstacles related to your position in life that prevented you from having the opportunities and chances Prof. Gold had.

Prof. Gold has not lived your life, Cheesey, and does not know of your adversity and problems (including with state and federal agencies, I'm sure). Likewise, you have not lived the life of any black person. Don't make absolute statements of what black people should be doing based on your experience... because, well based on the life of Gerald L. Gold, you then look like you're making excuses and have CHOSEN to be an unproductive member of civil society. No one likes a person using their disability as a crutch. *shrug*
The NFL: Where Greg Jennings Happens.
all_about_da_packers
4 years ago
Earthquake, for God's sake man you have people here who agree with you.

Trying to get an unemployed old dude who is set in his views and ways to understand you is pointless. The guy literally cannot project his views further: he cannot financially enhance business/people that may agree with him; has no off-spring to instill his views to; prefers a bubble that echoes only his views; and has no interest/inclination to organize or participate in grass roots activism related to his views.

Literally, his voice is not going to be amplified... you are wasting your time trying to educate someone who (with respect) doesn't matter.
The NFL: Where Greg Jennings Happens.
Cheesey
  • Cheesey
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
4 years ago
“With respect, doesn’t matter.😂😂😂”
Geez.
You don’t listen to anyone’s views that differ then yours, yet you judge me for not agreeing with you.
Do you not see how you are doing the same thing you say I’m doing?
Oh....I guess it’s because your ALWAYS right.
I won’t bother with this garbage anymore. It’s not worth it.
You can go on patting each other on the back how you can bully someone into giving up.
I really don’t care anymore.
Then you can keep making excuses for criminals.
i bet you all are white. Act like you know what’s going on.

UserPostedImage
dyeah_gb
4 years ago

When it comes to race, ....

Originally Posted by: earthquake 



Your first paragraph is full of inaccurate statements, bold assertions and incorrect accusations yet I still managed to read your entire post.

You are very confident with your capital F facts yet your citations are biased and are sloppy with the numbers. I wonder if you actually took the time to read and think about the information you reference. For example, look at this quote "In 2010, the Black arrest rate for marijuana possession was 716 per100,000, while the white arrest rate was 192 per 100,000. Stated another way, a Black person was 3.73 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than a white person — a disparity that increased 32.7% between 2001 and 2010."

Does this mean that 100,000 documented possession incidents occurred, for both blacks and whites and that the police let off the white guys in higher frequency? Is their a large database that shows that cops stopped someone, identified they were in possession and let them go? More likely, one set of statistics (marijuana use) is sloppily connected with possession arrests which may have been motivated by a multitude of causes (one of which may be racist police and law enforcement). Further, the report is unfocused and can't seem to make up its mind whether it is making an issue of drug criminalization or racism.

Your graph on incarceration rates is laughable and reminds me of this comic
UserPostedImage



Finally your last graph is a perfect example of the fallacy of correlation vs causation unless you believe that police are sexists and target males in disproportionate numbers. Maybe you can explain what "Incarceration rates of inmates incarcerated under state and federal jurisdiction" means.

"Facts" without critical thought is like bringing Viagra to the Lilith fair.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - R. Feynman
Smokey
4 years ago

Earthquake, for God's sake man you have people here who agree with you.

Trying to get an unemployed old dude who is set in his views and ways to understand you is pointless. The guy literally cannot project his views further: he cannot financially enhance business/people that may agree with him; has no off-spring to instill his views to; prefers a bubble that echoes only his views; and has no interest/inclination to organize or participate in grass roots activism related to his views.

Literally, his voice is not going to be amplified... you are wasting your time trying to educate someone who (with respect) doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by: all_about_da_packers 



Careful, this "old dude" your disagreeing with is part of this forums inner circle. You could be banned for jousting with him. He has a "Monopoly - Get out of jail free" card. Do you ?
UserPostedImage
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