Zero2Cool
6 years ago

Freedom of speech also let's us sit around and discuss how wrong "Those People" are.

For those who don't know it, "Those People" was the term General Robert E. Lee used when speaking of the Union army.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



Quoting solely because of the mention of Lee, not a direct reply to the quote.

Robert E. Lee was not in favor of slavery.

Interesting quote from Robert E. Lee.

In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

Robert E. Lee wrote:



If Virginia had not seceded, he would have most surely been the General (or Commander) of the Union and the Civil War (just my opinion) would have been over far sooner.
Porforis
6 years ago

Robert E. Lee was not in favor of slavery.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



That's... An interesting way of interpreting that quote. That's like saying "Hey I really wish that I didn't have to beat my wife because hey that's wrong, but she's better off with me than she would be alone and gosh darn it, she just needs the discipline to keep her in line. How long I'll need to keep beating her for is up to God to decide".
Zero2Cool
6 years ago

That's... An interesting way of interpreting that quote.

Originally Posted by: Porforis 



Probably because it wasn't an interpretation of the quote at all. I don't believe what I said was something new, most people familiar with Civil War and history of that time frame are aware of it.
Cheesey
6 years ago
You are right Zero! You can protest at work, but you may have to pay the consequences, like your boss telling you to pick up your last check and clear out your desk.
Which is what I have been saying about the NFL players. You can protest, but you may end up having to get a REAL job.

wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
6 years ago

Probably because it wasn't an interpretation of the quote at all. I don't believe what I said was something new, most people familiar with Civil War and history of that time frame are aware of it.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



It is true Lee wasn't "in favor" of slavery. Yet he was a dichotomy. He didn't free his family's slaves. He prefered to stay with Virgina instead of the Union. He led open rebellion. Even if he didn't believe in slavery, he didn't feel the Black man was his equal either.

Duty and honor of the nineteenth century Southern plantation owner were chains that tied them too.

I was recently reading how Mr Lincoln was very much surprised when there wasn't a counter revolt in the South. He truly expected the majority of people to shout down the few who advocated secession. Instead roughly 80-90% of the people supported secession in one way or another instead of the 10-20% he thought it would be. He misunderstood how strong their traditions and society were.
Zero2Cool
6 years ago

It is true Lee wasn't "in favor" of slavery. Yet he was a dichotomy. He didn't free his family's slaves. He prefered to stay with Virgina instead of the Union. He led open rebellion. Even if he didn't believe in slavery, he didn't feel the Black man was his equal either.

Duty and honor of the nineteenth century Southern plantation owner were chains that tied them too.

I was recently reading how Mr Lincoln was very much surprised when there wasn't a counter revolt in the South. He truly expected the majority of people to shout down the few who advocated secession. Instead roughly 80-90% of the people supported secession in one way or another instead of the 10-20% he thought it would be. He misunderstood how strong their traditions and society were.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



If Virginia had not seceded, he would have lead the Union army. It wasn't a preference. He chose to leave the Army to defend Virginia and was (by his standards) the honorable thing to do. Virginia does not secede, he leads Army to a (my opinion) decisive victory for the Union and casualties would be dramatically less.

The Civil War began not to end Slavery, but because the slave states didn't to because the free and slave states arguing over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states.

That leads me to wonder what if Virginia had not seceded; Lee (I'm going to assume) leads Union to a decisive victory, do we still abolish slavery without the Emancipation Proclamation?
wpr
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  • Preferred Member
6 years ago
Without the Civil War slavery would have remained in the South until the 20th century. It wouldn't have been expanded into the territories but it would have existed in the deep South.

With mechanization it would have been less viable. More Blacks would have been given their freedom. Landowners would have realized it's cheaper to give them a subsistence wage (and then charge for rent and supplies) than it was to feed and clothe them. Plus keep men around in case of an escape.
Zero2Cool
6 years ago

Without the Civil War slavery would have remained in the South until the 20th century. It wouldn't have been expanded into the territories but it would have existed in the deep South.

With mechanization it would have been less viable. More Blacks would have been given their freedom. Landowners would have realized it's cheaper to give them a subsistence wage (and then charge for rent and supplies) than it was to feed and clothe them. Plus keep men around in case of an escape.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



Yes, I do believe the Civil War, regardless of Emancipation Proclamation, was the beginning of the end of slavery. However, back to my inquiry/wonder -- I don't believe it can be safely assumed because since cause of the Civil War was not to end slavery, it was about the power of the national government over territories not yet slave states. If the war ended prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, just when would slavery have ended? 10 years? 20? 50?

I just believe that if Lee lead the military for Union (assuming Virginia did not secede) that Lee would have crushed Confederacy swiftly and we don't get to the Emancipation Proclamation, which was instituted because the North needed more soldiers and to change the narrative of the war from political to moral.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
6 years ago

Yes, I do believe the Civil War, regardless of Emancipation Proclamation, was the beginning of the end of slavery. However, back to my inquiry/wonder -- I don't believe it can be safely assumed because since cause of the Civil War was not to end slavery, it was about the power of the national government over territories not yet slave states. If the war ended prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, just when would slavery have ended? 10 years? 20? 50?

I just believe that if Lee lead the military for Union (assuming Virginia did not secede) that Lee would have crushed Confederacy swiftly and we don't get to the Emancipation Proclamation, which was instituted because the North needed more soldiers and to change the narrative of the war from political to moral.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I guess I wasn't clear. It wouldn't have ended until the 20th century. It may well have more or less died out in the upper south where there was more small scale farming operations and less plantation scale operations. (More corn less cotton.) But even in those states they probably wouldn't have passed a law abolishing it until they had to.
4PackGirl
6 years ago
I saw some talk of the Pledge of Allegiance & I just wanted to let you know that it is said daily here in grade school & high school as well. As far as the National Anthem goes, I will be happy to NOT hear another butcher job of the song by some high paid, low class supposed singer. I always LOVE when the Armed Forces bands play/sing it.
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packerfanoutwest (8h) : so who is the first Irish woman you see in the springtime?
Martha Careful (9h) : Happy St. Patrick's Day!! who is the first Irish woman you see in the summertime? Pati O'Furniture
dfosterf (22h) : Or, if not in that mood, Tommy Emanuel plays Classical Gas on his guitar. I swear to God it's almost like he bends it
dfosterf (22h) : This goes out to WPR as well. Lucy Thomas sings Unchained Melody by the Rightous Brothers. All I can say is, wow
dfosterf (22h) : Got the reference, as usual. I think you have to have a few miles on you to get it, props to you! My thank you is to make a suggestion. ..
Martha Careful (23h) : never spectacular, but well above average in my day!!! My draft picks, however outstanding.
Martha Careful (23h) : never spectacular, but well above average in my day!!! My draft picks, however outstanding.
dfosterf (16-Mar) : But not real? (Sidra in Seinfeld reference)
Martha Careful (16-Mar) : OK Zero, used a draft simulator and have posted my picks. They are spectacular
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : AI probably like meh I say bad idea, but you gonna do it anyway!!!
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : dfosfter, I asked AI if I should do something, it recommended I do not, then showed me how to do it anyway.
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : Yeah, beast you got it right. not sure what the heck i was reading
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : Oh wow, I read something way wrong. Vikings did NOT send 2nd.
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : That's how I feel about it when I think of doing X, I then do Y!
dfosterf (16-Mar) : I'm here to help. Give me your options, I will make my suggestion, then you can do the opposite
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : Mainly because I cannot make a friggin decision.
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : Creating forum is much harder than expected haha
beast (16-Mar) : 49ers got two picks (one in 2025, and 2026), Vikings got a RB and one lower 2025 pick
beast (16-Mar) : Huh? Vikings have the same amount of 2025 picks as before the 49ers trade... and their 2nd round pick is with the Bills from '24 draft trade
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : Vikings have just four picks now. They shipped their 2nd to 49ers.
beast (16-Mar) : 49ers sure didn't get much for him...
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : TRADE The 49ers are trading RB Jordan Mason to the Vikings.
Zero2Cool (16-Mar) : and Vikings say JJ is QB1
beast (16-Mar) : Rumors: Steelers and Giants are waiting on Rodgers answer, while Rodgers is waiting on the Vikings answer, Rodgers wants Vikings
beast (15-Mar) : Then maybe they'll be paying you to stop
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : you really really do not want to see me dance
beast (15-Mar) : Ookay, get up on the pole and start dancing, and I'll try to send people over to give you $1 bills
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : I'm an issue. Throw money at me, I will go away.
beast (15-Mar) : Bears have thrown a lot of money and draft picks at QBs and haven't found one (though maybe they finally have now)
beast (15-Mar) : Throwing money and draft picks at issues don't necessarily fix an issue
TheKanataThrilla (15-Mar) : I keep on hearing pass rush, but it astounds me how much $$ we have invested and draft picks and still don't have one.
TheKanataThrilla (15-Mar) : Hope we don't avoid someone like Christian Gonzalez which would have been a real gift last season.
TheKanataThrilla (15-Mar) : There always seems to be a high draft pick that slips and is there when we pick.
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : Aaron Rodgers hopes to sign with the Vikings, per Mike Silver.
Zero2Cool (15-Mar) : You're not gonna go for what your board says? Just straight up positions?
Martha Careful (15-Mar) : my drafts would be OL DL and CB centric. Preferably from power 4 conferences who have started 2+ years
Mucky Tundra (15-Mar) : How much of that is guaranteed?
Zero2Cool (14-Mar) : $45m over three years. Yikes.
dfosterf (14-Mar) : Seahawks sign Cooper Kupp
Zero2Cool (14-Mar) : Colts sign CB Corey Ballentine.
dfosterf (14-Mar) : At least give it some spins in your mocks. Not Martha, she's disqualified, lol
dfosterf (14-Mar) : You have to like Tyliek Williams DL from Ohio State to agree with me on this
dfosterf (14-Mar) : quality dl in the 2nd and quality edge in the 3rd
dfosterf (14-Mar) : Taking Mathew Golden WR in the 1st is consistently working out for me in getting q
Zero2Cool (14-Mar) : LB Eric Wilson to Vikings
Zero2Cool (13-Mar) : Hobbs said Jaire reached out and congratulated him.
Martha Careful (13-Mar) : ditto, I wish nothing but the best for AJ Diilan and Josh Myers. and yes dfosterf, you are correct
Mucky Tundra (12-Mar) : Love AJ but it was time to move on. Also, gonna be interesting to see how he does behind Phillys oline
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