I never understood singers trying to put their 'twist' on the National Anthem.

As for Pledge of Allegiance, I think if we removed "under God" no one could cry about it. Then it's 100% our Country without any religious aspect.

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Z2c said: I think if we removed "under God" no one could cry about it. Then it's 100% our Country without any religious aspect.

I couldn't disagree more. The country was founded on Judaeo-Christian values and implicit in those values are the rights and principles in the drafting of (as well as the application of) the Declaration and the Constitution. All the founders believed in God. All but 2 were Christians. Franklin and Jefferson were Deists. The founders ASSUMED a moral and law-abiding society would need to have as its basis, these moral underpinnings. Notwithstanding, the Constitutional guarantees that the Federal Government shall not have the right to impose a national religion. This was done as various colonies practices different forms of Christianity.

Moreover, the assumption is the citizenry would have a common assumptions and believes on what constituted fundamental values, which were predicated upon a moral, just, and vengeful God. These presumptions included:
- you shall not murder
- you shall not steal
- if you do not work you shall not eat
- you should honor your parents (including take care of them when they get older)

Our society needs to have these values (not any specific religion) as the moral underpinnings. Without belief in absolute values, man falls into moral relativism and decay...a morass of moral relativism... precisely what is happening to our country and the world today.

To wit, society today has devolved into:
- if I want to murder my kid, that's its my choice...and you pay for it
- if I want to tax the hell out of you, including taxing you at at great rate than I want to pay, that's ok
- if I choose to tax you to pay for another man's food, heath-care, etc. because I don't want to pay for it...that's ok
- I want to tax you to pay for my parents, because I don't want to

It is easier to understand why some people want to remove God's values from the our public assertions and proclamations of belief....it is because this moral absolutes are discomforting to them.

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The concept of the Pledge began during the Civil War. The bulk of the current pledge was created in 1892, adopted by Congress in 1942. The words, "under God" weren't added until 1954.

62 years without the words "under God" in the Pledge. 64 years with them included.

I am a Conservative Christian but I don't see Christ getting bogged down in the politics of this day nor desiring His disciples to do so. Prayer comes from the heart not the lips.

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On what basis then do our principles and faith affect who we vote for? Do we leave our principles at the church door?

Perhaps the phrase “under God” was not there originally, but it didn’t need to be because America and the basic moral standards and underpinnings had permeated through society.

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I don't even know where to begin. I feel the point was completely missed and in turn am missing the point in the rebuttal. I'll have to come back at some other point.

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I apologize for missing the point.

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I'll see if I can clarify where I'm coming from. I'm not against religion, however, I understand there are several hundred (if not more) very devout religions and in our Country, we welcome them all. It's not right for us to force our "God" upon them. And this is the premise that the pledge has been disappearing in schools. I just think focusing on our Country, more than dividing us by religion is better for our Country and for us to be more accepting of others religions, even if they differ from our own.

No one is believing in God because it's in our Pledge of Allegiance. But, by removing just two words, we can continue to have a pledge for our Country.

Maybe that makes more sense to what I'm saying?

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At a minimum, an understanding of what the Founding Fathers believed, specifically the rights bestowed to mankind by the God they believed in, is vitally important for a number of reasons in regard to an understanding of the Declaration of Independence and the drafting of the Constitution which governs our country.

The United States of America is unique in all other countries because we believe our rights are granted to us by God and that they are unalienable. Rights are not granted to us by a government...the government is granted certain limited powers to govern, by the people.

Therefore belief in a God as the grantor of these rights is essential in the understanding of the Constitution and its limits on the federal government’s ability to limit these rights. Moreover the government, especially the federal government is limited in scope, power, and authority.

As you rightly point out, this is not a theocracy, it is a constitutional republic based upon a government with a limited ability to limit the rights granted by God. But an understanding of those rights requires an informed citizenry to understand what those values and mores were implicit in the Constitution so that they can understand the foundational concepts behind our laws and apply them properly.

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Jefferson was in Paris when the Constitution was drafted; but he had major influence over what was written. There were 2 Constitutional camps on Christianity: (1) Jefferson, didn’t believe Jesus was the son of God; but thought Christian morals was an exemplary form of expression. He feared church leaders would become populist politicians and that tyranny might ensue. (2) Madison, a Christian, feared that politics would consume/pervert Christianity. Madison like most of his fellow Christian Constitutional drafters were slave holders; so their practice of Christianity was duplicitously effed. Dovetailing with their slave-owner status is that they were all rich and if you believe Jesus and the Bible’s words have merit on the subject; then we need to assume most were evil inside parading around wearing Christian masks. To the extent one might claim our nation was founded on Christianity, it was an expressly faux-Christianity.

Ironically, both camps were 100% bought into the separation of church and state for different, but obvious, reasons

Mike Pence and today’s evangelical movement he exemplifies is the quintessential nightmare for both Jefferson and Madison. Evangelicals have become corrupted by politics and hence have become the meanest anti-Christ mothers on the planet and when they get power they look to impose tyranny on all that don’t see it their way.

I’ll tell you how real Christians use their power to vote. They don’t vote for amoral things; for example, they don’t vote for and work tirelessly against:
• Anyone trying to impose Christian beliefs thru law or legislation; its selfish and egotistical to want it and the Bible asserts both of those qualities suck. The real Christian calls his senators to say; you better not vote for Gorsich or Kavenaugh, and if they do, they don’t vote for them ever again.
• Anyone who says its okay for a bakers not to make cakes for LGBTQs. The Bible says “do unto others” and let the sinless nasty little bitches throw those first rocks.
• Anyone who supports tax breaks for Robberbarons or allows robberbarons to hoard wealth; because the Bible says that most rich are pure evil.
• Anyone who allows the stealing of immigrant children; its amoral on a thousands of levels.
• Anyone who wants imperialistic wars or the destruction of the environment.
• Anyone who supports an orange, rude, foul, racists, misogynist, pathological lying, philanderer.
• an orange, rude, foul, racists, misogynist, pathological lying, philandering moron, just because he says he’ll let you say Christmas again.

and to get back on topic...vote against anyone the spews self-centered Nationalistic rhetoric in derogation of a worker's right NOT to be abused and to be able to speak out against police violence at a time the boss has no control over the worker.

Clearly some of us are familiar with the history of the Declaration and Constitution...some just read web blog talking points.
You can always tell a liberal by the debating technique...attack the person who supposedly represents the idea, not the ideas or ideals themselves.
Which elements of Judaeo-Christian's values do you specifically dislike? Self sufficiency, hard work, charity, telling the truth, non-covetousness, honoring parents, respecting other peoples property?
Slavery was and is wrong...which is why Christians led the charge to abolish it.
You seem to be missing the main point of the argument which is that God is the source of the rights...not government.
By the way, who are you suggesting is wanting to impose Christianity on anyone. No one, at least on this on this blog has suggested imposing Christianity upon anyone...and I would suggest most of us who are Christians believe in free will...it is your choice whether or not to believe (another of the rights given by God.)
Regardless, a moral society does not believe in:
- murder
- lying
- assault
- theft
- forced income redistribution (by the way, the founders did not believe there should be an income tax)
Evangelicals and other Christians, Jews, and Muslims, have by in large have sat idle by while moral equivocators and elitists seem to think they have a superior knowledge of right and wrong. Now they are tired of it.
And yes, as we see in the headlines every day, many Evangelical and other Church leaders are deeply flawed...which is why for many of use we read the Bible to see what was originally intended. For the same reason, I like to read the Federalist Papers and other historical documents to see what was originally intended.
BF, some of your point are well taken...some are simply ludicrous. For example, who are you or the government to tell anyone who they should work for. If I own a business, and I do, it is my choice who I work for and who I don't. By the way the Supreme Court just ruled, albeit limited, that is my right.
I suggest you turn off PMSNBC and actually read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers to get an understanding by what was intended, and not intended, in the Constitution Drafting.
Further, please dispense of the red herring that somehow Evangelicals are forcing you to convert. If you want to see real forced conversion, move to a country where only one religion (or no religion) can be practiced.

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