Zero2Cool
7 years ago

I think it's pretty fair to rate this team without Rodgers involved. It's a good indicator for how much talent we have on our roster. I mean, you'd want to look at your other player groups from an unbiased perspective as possible. That'd be with the most average QB in the league. Now, Hundley was far below average, so he dragged the entire team down, but Rodgers is so far above average you can't objectively say if half of our receivers are any good, because he'll make them look good.

QB is such a ridicuslously important position that it can hide some major flaws on your team. Mickey Loomis and Bill Polian had cushy jobs for years because of just that. It's when that QB is not around, those flaws start to show.

I'm not saying you can subtract Rodgers when you're talking about the complete roster. I'm just saying that Rodgers would've given the Browns at least 6 wins this year.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



How is it fair to remove the best player on a team and THEN rate them? That seems so idiotic to me. I don't understand the value in removing a piece and then rating. It's perception manipulation. Again, that to me is as stupid as taking a RB longest run and saying without that run we stopped him to below 100 yards. Yet, with the longest run he had over 180. You can't freaking take a player away and then rate the team. Why? Because the player is a part of the team!

Perhaps I'm being too analytical. I just don't get it at all.
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Rockmolder
7 years ago

How is it fair to remove the best player on a team and THEN rate them? That seems so idiotic to me. I don't understand the value in removing a piece and then rating. It's perception manipulation. Again, that to me is as stupid as taking a RB longest run and saying without that run we stopped him to below 100 yards. Yet, with the longest run he had over 180. You can't freaking take a player away and then rate the team. Why? Because the player is a part of the team!

Perhaps I'm being too analytical. I just don't get it at all.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Because you want to have an unbiased look. If that RB you keep talking about has 5 carries and 1 of them was for over 80 yards, while he ran for 5 yards on the other 4, it's fair to place that asterik. That's why these stat-records always have a minimum of games played, minimum of passes thrown, minimum of whatever.

Anyway, Rodgers skews the view of our team so badly that you can't objectively look at the talent level of our team in wins/losses without taking him out. But I think I went into that enough in that last post.

You leave out so many aspects if you just say that 10 wins = good team.

It's like a 1996 Ford Escort with worn tires, rusty undercarriage and horrible suspension, but with a BMW M240i's engine.

That wouldn't make for a great car overall, but one with the most important piece in place to put it above the rest and most likely outperform quite a few of them. Without that engine, though, it's a piece of shit.
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

Because you want to have an unbiased look. If that RB you keep talking about has 5 carries and 1 of them was for over 80 yards, while he ran for 5 yards on the other 4, it's fair to place that asterik. That's why these stat-records always have a minimum of games played, minimum of passes thrown, minimum of whatever.

Anyway, Rodgers skews the view of our team so badly that you can't objectively look at the talent level of our team in wins/losses without taking him out. But I think I went into that enough in that last post.

You leave out so many aspects if you just say that 10 wins = good team.

It's like a 1996 Ford Escort with worn tires, rusty undercarriage and horrible suspension, but with a BMW M240i's engine.

That wouldn't make for a great car overall, but one with the most important piece in place to put it above the rest and most likely outperform quite a few of them. Without that engine, though, it's a piece of shit.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



I don't even think that engine would bolt up in the Escort so the car wouldn't be a great car regardless. Maybe if you put on a big spoiler you can have a large heavy stroller.

Barry Sanders had a lot of games where he had many carries under a few yards and even negative yards and then would bust one for a long score. Hell, look at his season he rushed for 2,053 yards where he had something like ~20 carries for ~50 yards. I ain't hearing anyone saying he's a pile of shit RB so your RB deal doesn't hold up there either. In fact, Barry lost more rushing yards than any other RB during his career, yet many consider him one of the best ever. No asterisk either. I'm sure you'll come back an say he's the exception to the rule.

Did I say 10 wins = good team? I think if we're going to slap a number of wins to determine a good team I would probably aim more like 12 wins or more. Always felt 8 - 0 at home and split the road games. I think that's more a good season than a good team though.

I liked McCarthy saying the defense needs to be better than the offense. He's right. You have Aaron Rodgers on the team, (even though some want to remove him and then rate the team [weird]) and with him you're damn near always in every game.
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Rockmolder
7 years ago

I don't even think that engine would bolt up in the Escort so the car wouldn't be a great car regardless. Maybe if you put on a big spoiler you can have a large heavy stroller.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Yeah... I pretty much put my complete knowledge of cars in that one sentence, so I really don't know. But I think the analogy was clear.

Barry Sanders had a lot of games where he had many carries under a few yards and even negative yards and then would bust one for a long score. Hell, look at his season he rushed for 2,053 yards where he had something like ~20 carries for ~50 yards. I ain't hearing anyone saying he's a pile of shit RB so your RB deal doesn't hold up there either. In fact, Barry lost more rushing yards than any other RB during his career, yet many consider him one of the best ever. No asterisk either. I'm sure you'll come back an say he's the exception to the rule.



I'm not quite sure how this relates to anything, as I mentioned a lack of sample size. I don't think you can say Sanders had a lack of sample size when you look at his career or season stats. Barry Sanders is the best RB ever. Looking at it from a team perspective, though, he could've been even better, but you have to take look at, objectively, how good the rest of that team was.

Now it is true that a running back doesn't skew your view of skill as much as a great QB, but you could make a claim that Barry would pull every safety and linebacker closer to the box and LoS just so someone could get a hand on him. That'd make an Erik Kramer or Rodney Peete look better than they might be, because the deep game completely opens up.

Did I say 10 wins = good team? I think if we're going to slap a number of wins to determine a good team I would probably aim more like 12 wins or more. Always felt 8 - 0 at home and split the road games. I think that's more a good season than a good team though.



No, but I figured I'd throw this one in just for you. The Zero2 way of discussing by assumption. All kidding aside, the exact figure doesn't matter. Maybe this whole discussion is more about semantics than anything. A 12 win team can be a non-complete team. Maybe that carries the load better. To test that completeness, rating it without Rodgers is a lot easier. Like we saw this year.

I liked McCarthy saying the defense needs to be better than the offense. He's right. You have Aaron Rodgers on the team, (even though some want to remove him and then rate the team [weird]) and with him you're damn near always in every game.



We certainly agree on that. Rodgers keeps you in just about every ball game. We weren't that great a team in 2015, but Rodgers kept us in just about every game.
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

A 12 win team can be a non-complete team. Maybe that carries the load better. To test that completeness, rating it without Rodgers is a lot easier. Like we saw this year.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 


Actually, thinking about this a second longer I just realized I have an example disproving my 12 win = good team speculation because the Packers went 15 - 1 and I don't think that was a good time. I think that was an insanely prolific offense with a horrifying defense. My head hurts.


Eh, I'm gonna just chalk this up to another thing I just can't get my two brain cells wrapped around and stop making things difficult for those who do get it.

Pertaining to the topic title here, yes, Vikings and Eagles built teams that aren't predicated on an elite QB to attain success. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. I don't believe any Packers fan is running saying they ONLY want an elite QB for a Super Bowl win. I would bet the fan base would rather have a TEAM that can win with a Brett Hundley instead of NEEDING an Aaron Rodgers to be competitive.

I don't think the Packers are top quarter in the NFL, but they aren't bottom quarter either. I would say their draft position is pretty close to their ranking in the NFL although I'd probably put them closer to bottom 10 to top 12.
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wpr
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  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
7 years ago

Yeah... I pretty much put my complete knowledge of cars in that one sentence, so I really don't know. But I think the analogy was clear.



I'm not quite sure how this relates to anything, as I mentioned a lack of sample size. I don't think you can say Sanders had a lack of sample size when you look at his career or season stats. Barry Sanders is the best RB ever. Looking at it from a team perspective, though, he could've been even better, but you have to take look at, objectively, how good the rest of that team was.

Now it is true that a running back doesn't skew your view of skill as much as a great QB, but you could make a claim that Barry would pull every safety and linebacker closer to the box and LoS just so someone could get a hand on him. That'd make an Erik Kramer or Rodney Peete look better than they might be, because the deep game completely opens up.



No, but I figured I'd throw this one in just for you. The Zero2 way of discussing by assumption. All kidding aside, the exact figure doesn't matter. Maybe this whole discussion is more about semantics than anything. A 12 win team can be a non-complete team. Maybe that carries the load better. To test that completeness, rating it without Rodgers is a lot easier. Like we saw this year.



We certainly agree on that. Rodgers keeps you in just about every ball game. We weren't that great a team in 2015, but Rodgers kept us in just about every game.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



Very much off topic but then invoking Barry Sanders doesn't really have much to do with the Eagles, Vikings or even the Rodger-less Packers team of 2017 either-

Rocky as I read your comments in this section I was noticing how much your English has improved from when you were at 15. It is better than many for whom English is their primary language. I had to correct my spelling at least a half dozen times in this post.

I loved your analogy of the Ford Escort complete with worn tires and rust. (I can see anyone from the Upper Midwest of the U.S. using it.) Lost in your excellent example is the understanding that anyone who would be adept at sticking the M240i engine into the Escort would be able to make ALL the necessary modifications in order for it to fit and run the car. Also lost is the basic understanding that you tried to express. The "WHY WOULD ANYONE EVEN BOTHER TO WASTE THE ENGINE LIKE THAT?"

Your comment made me wonder do they salt the roads in Europe like they do here? In northern Illinois if we get a few flakes the trucks are out pouring salt all over the place. It wasn't always like this. I am nearly 60 and I remember a time when they only plowed and salted major intersections. The crazy American judicial system has forced the overuse of salt creating the rust issues on cars.


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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
7 years ago

Actually, thinking about this a second longer I just realized I have an example disproving my 12 win = good team speculation because the Packers went 15 - 1 and I don't think that was a good time. I think that was an insanely prolific offense with a horrifying defense. My head hurts.


Eh, I'm gonna just chalk this up to another thing I just can't get my two brain cells wrapped around and stop making things difficult for those who do get it.

Pertaining to the topic title here, yes, Vikings and Eagles built teams that aren't predicated on an elite QB to attain success. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. I don't believe any Packers fan is running saying they ONLY want an elite QB for a Super Bowl win. I would bet the fan base would rather have a TEAM that can win with a Brett Hundley instead of NEEDING an Aaron Rodgers to be competitive.

I don't think the Packers are top quarter in the NFL, but they aren't bottom quarter either. I would say their draft position is pretty close to their ranking in the NFL although I'd probably put them closer to bottom 10 to top 12.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Funny the 15-1 season crossed my mind too. There was a lot of skill on the part of Rodgers and the offense. They was also a little bit of luck to get to 15 wins as well. That same team playing those games over could have ended up with 11-13 wins just as easily.


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yooperfan
7 years ago
Yeah, I thought about that 15-1 season as well.
Not only did we learn how poorly prepared to compete the defense was, we learned how poorly coached the team was when it came to playing the Giants in the playoffs.
During pre-game warm ups the Packers looked flat and unprepared.
I told my son at the time that we were going to lose that game.
If Rodgers hadn't been behind center that day we probably would have been shut out.

I sat through a lot of sad games during the 70's and 80's but I don't think I ever left Lambeau field as pissed off as I was at the end of that game.
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

Yeah, I thought about that 15-1 season as well.
Not only did we learn how poorly prepared to compete the defense was, we learned how poorly coached the team was when it came to playing the Giants in the playoffs.
During pre-game warm ups the Packers looked flat and unprepared.
I told my son at the time that we were going to lose that game.
If Rodgers hadn't been behind center that day we probably would have been shut out.

I sat through a lot of sad games during the 70's and 80's but I don't think I ever left Lambeau field as pissed off as I was at the end of that game.

Originally Posted by: yooperfan 



I'm not sure if it was that Giants game or earlier in the season vs the Bears, but Brett Favre said he didn't want to play in that cold. I was like holy shit you do NOT say that outloud before the game. After the game you talk about how miserable it was, sure, but BEFORE the game?? Hell no! You strut your shit and act like you love that shit.
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yooperfan
7 years ago
The 15-1 season was the 2011 season, the playoff game against the Giants that I’m speaking of was actually in January of 2012.
Favre was long gone.
It was the playoff game against the Giants after the 2007 season that Favre was acting like a cold little girl.
That’s when I was for sure done with him, HOF QB or not.
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Zero2Cool (14-Feb) : Packers are hiring Luke Getsy as senior offensive assistant.
Martha Careful (12-Feb) : I would love to have them both, esp. Crosby, but either might be too expensive.
Zero2Cool (12-Feb) : Keisean Nixon is trying to get Maxx Crosby and Davante Adams lol
Mucky Tundra (11-Feb) : Yeah where did it go?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : or did you resctrict access to that topic?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : why did you remove the Playoff topic?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Tua’s old DC won a Super Bowl Year 1 with Tua’s former backup
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : *winning MVP
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Funny observation I've heard: Carson Wentz was on the sideline for both Eagles Super Bowl wins w/guys supposed to be his back up winning
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : NFL thought it would get more attention week preceding Super Bowl.
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Yes, the Pro Bowl. It was played Sunday before Super Bowl from 2010-2022
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : pro bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : From 2010 to 2022, it was played on the Sunday before the Super Bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : They moved it to the BYE week before Super Bowl several years ago.
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : it was always after the SB.....
beast (10-Feb) : Though I stop following pro bowl years ago
beast (10-Feb) : I thought the pro game was before the Super Bowl?
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : ok now for the Pro Bowl Game in Hawaii
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : If I was Philly I would try to end it instead of punting it
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : VICTORY! We have (moral) victory!
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Hey they mentioned that we 3-peted
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : seems to me the 49ers should have traded Aiyuk when they had the chance
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : if the Eagles get it down to the 1, do they Tush Push or give it to Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : 49ers have a money problem if they want to sign their QB
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Wait for real? Didn't he just get an extension two years ago?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : 49ers gonna trade Deebo. Interesting
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Replays always never seem to show the holdings
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Great throw by Hurts
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Where Carter falls prey to bad off the field influences (to be clear, not saying he'd clip someone though)
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Had Carter not gone to Philly were they already had a lot of old college friends, he ends up in a similar spot to Aaron Hernandez
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : I think some of his coaches told scouts to stay away
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : the street racing incident+conditioning and motivation problems
beast (10-Feb) : Then Carter was street racing, where the other car crashed and people died... and other teams were scared to pick Carter for some reason
beast (10-Feb) : I think the Saints traded up, giving their next year 1st to the Eagles, and then they sucked and Eagles got the 10th overall pick
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : wtf Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Getting Carter and Nolan Smith in the first round in 2023 was pretty darn good
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : for some reason i'm thinking of a draft where the Eagles where in the mid 20s and a top player fell all the way to them
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think so. I would need to look it up. Think it may have been Carolina's pick.
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : i'm not sure who i'm thinking of now
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : oh fuck me i messed that up
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Jordan Davis was 13th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Carter was 9th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles had 15th and 10th selections, moved to 13 and 9 to get Davis and Carter back to back
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles traded up for Carter, didn't they?
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Obviously he was a huge risk but getting a top 5 talent on the dline in the mid 20s is fortuitous
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Jalen Carter falling into their lap certainly helps
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : And we could only wish to have this type of D
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : It's not like Philly has had low draft picks, but has managed to get themselves a top notch pass rush. We spend so much draft capital of D
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : another crap halftime show
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think it is over, but then I think of Atlanta and want Philly to go in with the same intensity in the second half
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