Zero2Cool
7 years ago

I think it's pretty fair to rate this team without Rodgers involved. It's a good indicator for how much talent we have on our roster. I mean, you'd want to look at your other player groups from an unbiased perspective as possible. That'd be with the most average QB in the league. Now, Hundley was far below average, so he dragged the entire team down, but Rodgers is so far above average you can't objectively say if half of our receivers are any good, because he'll make them look good.

QB is such a ridicuslously important position that it can hide some major flaws on your team. Mickey Loomis and Bill Polian had cushy jobs for years because of just that. It's when that QB is not around, those flaws start to show.

I'm not saying you can subtract Rodgers when you're talking about the complete roster. I'm just saying that Rodgers would've given the Browns at least 6 wins this year.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



How is it fair to remove the best player on a team and THEN rate them? That seems so idiotic to me. I don't understand the value in removing a piece and then rating. It's perception manipulation. Again, that to me is as stupid as taking a RB longest run and saying without that run we stopped him to below 100 yards. Yet, with the longest run he had over 180. You can't freaking take a player away and then rate the team. Why? Because the player is a part of the team!

Perhaps I'm being too analytical. I just don't get it at all.
UserPostedImage
Rockmolder
7 years ago

How is it fair to remove the best player on a team and THEN rate them? That seems so idiotic to me. I don't understand the value in removing a piece and then rating. It's perception manipulation. Again, that to me is as stupid as taking a RB longest run and saying without that run we stopped him to below 100 yards. Yet, with the longest run he had over 180. You can't freaking take a player away and then rate the team. Why? Because the player is a part of the team!

Perhaps I'm being too analytical. I just don't get it at all.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Because you want to have an unbiased look. If that RB you keep talking about has 5 carries and 1 of them was for over 80 yards, while he ran for 5 yards on the other 4, it's fair to place that asterik. That's why these stat-records always have a minimum of games played, minimum of passes thrown, minimum of whatever.

Anyway, Rodgers skews the view of our team so badly that you can't objectively look at the talent level of our team in wins/losses without taking him out. But I think I went into that enough in that last post.

You leave out so many aspects if you just say that 10 wins = good team.

It's like a 1996 Ford Escort with worn tires, rusty undercarriage and horrible suspension, but with a BMW M240i's engine.

That wouldn't make for a great car overall, but one with the most important piece in place to put it above the rest and most likely outperform quite a few of them. Without that engine, though, it's a piece of shit.
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

Because you want to have an unbiased look. If that RB you keep talking about has 5 carries and 1 of them was for over 80 yards, while he ran for 5 yards on the other 4, it's fair to place that asterik. That's why these stat-records always have a minimum of games played, minimum of passes thrown, minimum of whatever.

Anyway, Rodgers skews the view of our team so badly that you can't objectively look at the talent level of our team in wins/losses without taking him out. But I think I went into that enough in that last post.

You leave out so many aspects if you just say that 10 wins = good team.

It's like a 1996 Ford Escort with worn tires, rusty undercarriage and horrible suspension, but with a BMW M240i's engine.

That wouldn't make for a great car overall, but one with the most important piece in place to put it above the rest and most likely outperform quite a few of them. Without that engine, though, it's a piece of shit.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



I don't even think that engine would bolt up in the Escort so the car wouldn't be a great car regardless. Maybe if you put on a big spoiler you can have a large heavy stroller.

Barry Sanders had a lot of games where he had many carries under a few yards and even negative yards and then would bust one for a long score. Hell, look at his season he rushed for 2,053 yards where he had something like ~20 carries for ~50 yards. I ain't hearing anyone saying he's a pile of shit RB so your RB deal doesn't hold up there either. In fact, Barry lost more rushing yards than any other RB during his career, yet many consider him one of the best ever. No asterisk either. I'm sure you'll come back an say he's the exception to the rule.

Did I say 10 wins = good team? I think if we're going to slap a number of wins to determine a good team I would probably aim more like 12 wins or more. Always felt 8 - 0 at home and split the road games. I think that's more a good season than a good team though.

I liked McCarthy saying the defense needs to be better than the offense. He's right. You have Aaron Rodgers on the team, (even though some want to remove him and then rate the team [weird]) and with him you're damn near always in every game.
UserPostedImage
Rockmolder
7 years ago

I don't even think that engine would bolt up in the Escort so the car wouldn't be a great car regardless. Maybe if you put on a big spoiler you can have a large heavy stroller.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Yeah... I pretty much put my complete knowledge of cars in that one sentence, so I really don't know. But I think the analogy was clear.

Barry Sanders had a lot of games where he had many carries under a few yards and even negative yards and then would bust one for a long score. Hell, look at his season he rushed for 2,053 yards where he had something like ~20 carries for ~50 yards. I ain't hearing anyone saying he's a pile of shit RB so your RB deal doesn't hold up there either. In fact, Barry lost more rushing yards than any other RB during his career, yet many consider him one of the best ever. No asterisk either. I'm sure you'll come back an say he's the exception to the rule.



I'm not quite sure how this relates to anything, as I mentioned a lack of sample size. I don't think you can say Sanders had a lack of sample size when you look at his career or season stats. Barry Sanders is the best RB ever. Looking at it from a team perspective, though, he could've been even better, but you have to take look at, objectively, how good the rest of that team was.

Now it is true that a running back doesn't skew your view of skill as much as a great QB, but you could make a claim that Barry would pull every safety and linebacker closer to the box and LoS just so someone could get a hand on him. That'd make an Erik Kramer or Rodney Peete look better than they might be, because the deep game completely opens up.

Did I say 10 wins = good team? I think if we're going to slap a number of wins to determine a good team I would probably aim more like 12 wins or more. Always felt 8 - 0 at home and split the road games. I think that's more a good season than a good team though.



No, but I figured I'd throw this one in just for you. The Zero2 way of discussing by assumption. All kidding aside, the exact figure doesn't matter. Maybe this whole discussion is more about semantics than anything. A 12 win team can be a non-complete team. Maybe that carries the load better. To test that completeness, rating it without Rodgers is a lot easier. Like we saw this year.

I liked McCarthy saying the defense needs to be better than the offense. He's right. You have Aaron Rodgers on the team, (even though some want to remove him and then rate the team [weird]) and with him you're damn near always in every game.



We certainly agree on that. Rodgers keeps you in just about every ball game. We weren't that great a team in 2015, but Rodgers kept us in just about every game.
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

A 12 win team can be a non-complete team. Maybe that carries the load better. To test that completeness, rating it without Rodgers is a lot easier. Like we saw this year.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 


Actually, thinking about this a second longer I just realized I have an example disproving my 12 win = good team speculation because the Packers went 15 - 1 and I don't think that was a good time. I think that was an insanely prolific offense with a horrifying defense. My head hurts.


Eh, I'm gonna just chalk this up to another thing I just can't get my two brain cells wrapped around and stop making things difficult for those who do get it.

Pertaining to the topic title here, yes, Vikings and Eagles built teams that aren't predicated on an elite QB to attain success. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. I don't believe any Packers fan is running saying they ONLY want an elite QB for a Super Bowl win. I would bet the fan base would rather have a TEAM that can win with a Brett Hundley instead of NEEDING an Aaron Rodgers to be competitive.

I don't think the Packers are top quarter in the NFL, but they aren't bottom quarter either. I would say their draft position is pretty close to their ranking in the NFL although I'd probably put them closer to bottom 10 to top 12.
UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
7 years ago

Yeah... I pretty much put my complete knowledge of cars in that one sentence, so I really don't know. But I think the analogy was clear.



I'm not quite sure how this relates to anything, as I mentioned a lack of sample size. I don't think you can say Sanders had a lack of sample size when you look at his career or season stats. Barry Sanders is the best RB ever. Looking at it from a team perspective, though, he could've been even better, but you have to take look at, objectively, how good the rest of that team was.

Now it is true that a running back doesn't skew your view of skill as much as a great QB, but you could make a claim that Barry would pull every safety and linebacker closer to the box and LoS just so someone could get a hand on him. That'd make an Erik Kramer or Rodney Peete look better than they might be, because the deep game completely opens up.



No, but I figured I'd throw this one in just for you. The Zero2 way of discussing by assumption. All kidding aside, the exact figure doesn't matter. Maybe this whole discussion is more about semantics than anything. A 12 win team can be a non-complete team. Maybe that carries the load better. To test that completeness, rating it without Rodgers is a lot easier. Like we saw this year.



We certainly agree on that. Rodgers keeps you in just about every ball game. We weren't that great a team in 2015, but Rodgers kept us in just about every game.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



Very much off topic but then invoking Barry Sanders doesn't really have much to do with the Eagles, Vikings or even the Rodger-less Packers team of 2017 either-

Rocky as I read your comments in this section I was noticing how much your English has improved from when you were at 15. It is better than many for whom English is their primary language. I had to correct my spelling at least a half dozen times in this post.

I loved your analogy of the Ford Escort complete with worn tires and rust. (I can see anyone from the Upper Midwest of the U.S. using it.) Lost in your excellent example is the understanding that anyone who would be adept at sticking the M240i engine into the Escort would be able to make ALL the necessary modifications in order for it to fit and run the car. Also lost is the basic understanding that you tried to express. The "WHY WOULD ANYONE EVEN BOTHER TO WASTE THE ENGINE LIKE THAT?"

Your comment made me wonder do they salt the roads in Europe like they do here? In northern Illinois if we get a few flakes the trucks are out pouring salt all over the place. It wasn't always like this. I am nearly 60 and I remember a time when they only plowed and salted major intersections. The crazy American judicial system has forced the overuse of salt creating the rust issues on cars.


UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
7 years ago

Actually, thinking about this a second longer I just realized I have an example disproving my 12 win = good team speculation because the Packers went 15 - 1 and I don't think that was a good time. I think that was an insanely prolific offense with a horrifying defense. My head hurts.


Eh, I'm gonna just chalk this up to another thing I just can't get my two brain cells wrapped around and stop making things difficult for those who do get it.

Pertaining to the topic title here, yes, Vikings and Eagles built teams that aren't predicated on an elite QB to attain success. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. I don't believe any Packers fan is running saying they ONLY want an elite QB for a Super Bowl win. I would bet the fan base would rather have a TEAM that can win with a Brett Hundley instead of NEEDING an Aaron Rodgers to be competitive.

I don't think the Packers are top quarter in the NFL, but they aren't bottom quarter either. I would say their draft position is pretty close to their ranking in the NFL although I'd probably put them closer to bottom 10 to top 12.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Funny the 15-1 season crossed my mind too. There was a lot of skill on the part of Rodgers and the offense. They was also a little bit of luck to get to 15 wins as well. That same team playing those games over could have ended up with 11-13 wins just as easily.


UserPostedImage
yooperfan
7 years ago
Yeah, I thought about that 15-1 season as well.
Not only did we learn how poorly prepared to compete the defense was, we learned how poorly coached the team was when it came to playing the Giants in the playoffs.
During pre-game warm ups the Packers looked flat and unprepared.
I told my son at the time that we were going to lose that game.
If Rodgers hadn't been behind center that day we probably would have been shut out.

I sat through a lot of sad games during the 70's and 80's but I don't think I ever left Lambeau field as pissed off as I was at the end of that game.
Zero2Cool
7 years ago

Yeah, I thought about that 15-1 season as well.
Not only did we learn how poorly prepared to compete the defense was, we learned how poorly coached the team was when it came to playing the Giants in the playoffs.
During pre-game warm ups the Packers looked flat and unprepared.
I told my son at the time that we were going to lose that game.
If Rodgers hadn't been behind center that day we probably would have been shut out.

I sat through a lot of sad games during the 70's and 80's but I don't think I ever left Lambeau field as pissed off as I was at the end of that game.

Originally Posted by: yooperfan 



I'm not sure if it was that Giants game or earlier in the season vs the Bears, but Brett Favre said he didn't want to play in that cold. I was like holy shit you do NOT say that outloud before the game. After the game you talk about how miserable it was, sure, but BEFORE the game?? Hell no! You strut your shit and act like you love that shit.
UserPostedImage
yooperfan
7 years ago
The 15-1 season was the 2011 season, the playoff game against the Giants that I’m speaking of was actually in January of 2012.
Favre was long gone.
It was the playoff game against the Giants after the 2007 season that Favre was acting like a cold little girl.
That’s when I was for sure done with him, HOF QB or not.
Fan Shout
packerfanoutwest (10-Jul) : Us Padres fans love it....But it'll be a Dodgers/Yankees World Series
Zero2Cool (9-Jul) : Brewers sweep Dodgers. Awesome
Mucky Tundra (6-Jul) : And James Flanigan is the grandson of Packers Super Bowl winner Jim Flanigan Sr.
Mucky Tundra (6-Jul) : Jerome Bettis and Jim Flanigans sons as well!
Zero2Cool (6-Jul) : Thomas Davis Jr is OLB, not WR. Oops.
Zero2Cool (6-Jul) : Larry Fitzgeral and Thomas Davis sons too. WR's as well.
Mucky Tundra (5-Jul) : Kaydon Finley, son of Jermichael Finley, commits to Notre Dame
dfosterf (3-Jul) : Make sure to send my props to him! A plus move!
Zero2Cool (3-Jul) : My cousin, yes.
dfosterf (3-Jul) : That was your brother the GB press gazette referenced with the red cross draft props thing, yes?
Zero2Cool (2-Jul) : Packers gonna unveil new throwback helmet in few weeks.
Mucky Tundra (2-Jul) : I know it's Kleiman but this stuff writes itself
Mucky Tundra (2-Jul) : "Make sure she signs the NDA before asking for a Happy Ending!"
Mucky Tundra (2-Jul) : @NFL_DovKleiman Powerful: Deshaun Watson is taking Shedeur Sanders 'under his wing' as a mentor to the Browns QBs
Zero2Cool (30-Jun) : Dolphins get (back) Minkah Fitzpatrick in trade
Zero2Cool (30-Jun) : Steelers land Jalen Ramsey via Trade
dfosterf (26-Jun) : I think it would be great to have someone like Tom Grossi or Andy Herman on the Board of Directors so he/they could inform us
dfosterf (26-Jun) : Fair enough, WPR. Thing is, I have been a long time advocate to at least have some inkling of the dynamics within the board.
wpr (26-Jun) : 1st world owners/stockholders problems dfosterf.
Martha Careful (25-Jun) : I would have otherwise admirably served
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Also, no more provision for a write-in candidate, so Martha is off the table at least for this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : You do have to interpret the boring fine print, but all stockholders all see he is on the ballot
dfosterf (25-Jun) : It also says he is subject to another ballot in 2028. I recall nothing of this nature with Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy is on my ballot subject to me penciling him in as a no.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : I thought it used to be we voted for the whatever they called the 45, and then they voted for the seven, and then they voted for Mark Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Because I was too lazy to change my address, I haven't voted fot years until this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : of the folks that run this team. I do not recall Mark Murphy being subject to our vote.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy yay or nay is on the pre-approved ballot that we always approve because we are uninformed and lazy, along with all the rest
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Weird question. Very esoteric. For stockholders. Also lengthy. Sorry. Offseason.
Zero2Cool (25-Jun) : Maybe wicked wind chill made it worse?
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : And then he signs with Cleveland in the offseason
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : @SharpFootball WR Diontae Johnson just admitted he refused to enter a game in 41° weather last year in Baltimore because he felt “ice cold”
Zero2Cool (24-Jun) : Yawn. Rodgers says he is "pretty sure" this be final season.
Zero2Cool (23-Jun) : PFT claims Packers are having extension talks with Zach Tom, Quay Walker.
Mucky Tundra (20-Jun) : GB-Minnesota 2004 Wild Card game popped up on my YouTube page....UGH
beast (20-Jun) : Hmm 🤔 re-signing Walker before Tom? Sounds highly questionable to me.
Mucky Tundra (19-Jun) : One person on Twitter=cannon law
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Well, to ONE person on Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : According to Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Packers are working on extension for LT Walker they hope to have done before camp
dfosterf (18-Jun) : E4B landed at Andrews last night
dfosterf (18-Jun) : 101 in a 60
dfosterf (18-Jun) : FAFO
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : one year $4m with incentives to make it up to $6m
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Or Lions
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Beats the hell out of a Vikings signing
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : Baltimore Ravens now have signed former Packers CB Jaire Alexander.
dfosterf (14-Jun) : TWO magnificent strikes for touchdowns. Lose the pennstate semigeezer non nfl backup
dfosterf (14-Jun) : There was minicamp Thursday. My man Taylor Engersma threw
dfosterf (11-Jun) : There will be a mini camp practice Thursday.
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
10-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

10-Jul / Around The NFL / Zero2Cool

6-Jul / Random Babble / Martha Careful

4-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

2-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

2-Jul / Fantasy Sports Talk / dfosterf

1-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

29-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

25-Jun / Around The NFL / Martha Careful

23-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

18-Jun / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

16-Jun / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.