Because you added math into "this one", I think there was a misunderstanding where I was wrong (I think).

You said 4 posts above "this one"... I now think you were calling your own post "this one". If so, you were saying your own post would be a lie, is that correct?

Where when I first read it, ... I thought "this one" was the one from Zero in which you were quoting and I went 4 up from there. Because you don't always know if someone might sneak in a new post before you hit post, so I thought you were referring to the one that was already there in your quote (what Zero said).

If that's the case I was wrong this time.
Nope, I got no reason to apology for treating you like you treat others. Like how you twisted the words to call me truly blind. I'm happy to treat you the way you have treated others.

But seriously that wording of your was unclear, you could of just said "my post above", if that's the one you meant.

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Like you said, feeling demeaned is a perspective thing. Zero can say I haven't been and it's all self created on my part. If that's what he thinks, then that's what he thinks. My perspective is very different, but I'm not allowed to have mine because it's wrong. I'll certainly say what my agenda is and answer charges made against me. That's my right to do so and I'll exercise it every time I feel I'm being falsely painted, or most of the time.

You speak to me demeaning others? I feel extremely confident I have never personally demeaned anyone on this forum. If the demeaning took place due to a strong opinion I shared that was counter to yours, I don't know what you'd like me to do in that case? If you post something extremely homerish that lacks any objectivity, and I call a spade a spade have I demeaned you? I don't see it that way. I have strongly clashed with your viewpoint but never you, personally.

I can imagine when I say things like this place endeavors to be a happy place buddy club could be interpreted as being demeaning? It's not meant that way. It is my way of saying what I honestly feel while feeling completely opposite in the hive mind generally expressed here. Is hive mind demeaning? Not to me...that mentality is everywhere. I despise it because it's predicated on certain things that I don't want to be part of. I don't want to trade rational thought for a sense of belonging based on fantasy.

Sorry, to any I have demeaned. It is not intentional, nor is it something I would ever want to do to somebody. I will say I HATE fakers. There is someone here who I think is the biggest phony on any Packers forum. He parrots things constantly and passes it off as if he's a football savant. Further, he makes things up constantly to try to sound informed. In my world, a person like that should be banned without any questions. There is no use for some faker on here pretending to be some guru that he is not. I'm not always right about what I say but I'm secure in knowing what I do say is something I personally believe and have really thought about. I draw from my time in sports broadcasting and have a different perspective. Hate being called arrogant. Not who I am at all. I am confident and strong in what I say.

My hope is I can be me here without the nonsense. If you'll notice, I rarely speak to anyone unless they've done so first. I'm not here to be personal or pick fights. I'm here to state my opinions...if they create issues, I can't control that. I'm not going to not say something I really think because someone might take it wrong or not be able to handle it. When posters think I'm wrong, I really hear about it. You should expect the same. It makes for great debate. Winning a debate isn't a goal of mine... I like to blast and break what I feel are false perceptions. If I'm wrong, you should be able to explain why I am, and same goes for me. Feels very one sided a lot here. I will explain myself but when I ask for same courtesy I get deflections and finger pointing and name calling all to avoid the subject. All of us need to be more humble and admit when we're wrong. You want me to be "nicer" then truly debate and display some humility. You think I'm the one who controls all this? I'm one minuscule vocal dissenter.

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I didn't say that. I can't tell you how you felt.

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Disagreeing in a civil way is NOT "hammering". Some aren't satisfied unless someone pats them on the back and says "your ALWAYS right!" If you think you are right, say it, and let it GO! You don't have to continually say it until someone gives in.
Some people agree with things I say, some don't. They have that right.

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No one like to be called a idiot when they disagree but even that I can excuse a little bit, after all we all think our opinions are right. What I really don't like is when someone is accused of or is looked down upon as less of a fan simply because they choose not to see everything the way you see it. When you think you are a better fan than someone else because you think you are right about everything and they don't happen to agree you are not going to win many friends or get much support. That goes for every one everywhere.

We are all Packer fans here ... well except for a few notable exceptions ... and we all root for the Packers in our own way. There is no right way to do it. If you think the right move for this team is to blow everything up and start over fine but that doesn't mean someone who doesn't feel that way is less of a fan. I am one of those people who is happy to make the playoffs every year and I don't see anything wrong with that. Being happy and being satisfied are two very different things however. To me the biggest insult to a Packer fan is to accuse them of being satisfied with just making the playoffs every year and I see that accusation quite a bit here. Just because some fans choose not to dwell on the negative all the time doesn't mean they don't see it or they don't want it fixed. You are nothing special if you think this team is a talentless void who has ridden Arron Rodgers coat tails all these years. Lots of people feel that way and they are no better fans than those who think that maybe they are over doing it a bit.

I'm going to add this to uffda personally since he was the impetus for my post. I honestly have absolutely no problems with your feelings toward Mike McCarthy or Ted Thompson or whoever. I have no problems whatsoever about you wanting them gone and I don't even have a problem with you wanting the packers to lose out (if in fact that is something you would want) if it facilitates the change you so strongly feel is needed. I may not agree with a lot of what you say but I do feel you are very knowledgeable about the Packers and the NFL in general. My biggest, and really only thing, I do not like about the way you act here is the comments you make regarding fans like I spelled out in the previous paragraph. You claim that you are not aware of demeaning anyone and that you would never intentionally do that but I know for a fact that you have questioned others "fandom" with regards to being "satisfied" with making the playoffs and to me that is demeaning. Like you said, what I think is demeaning you may not think is demeaning and sometimes you can't tell what others think is demeaning so I am just telling you so that you do know. Many of us don't like our fandom questioned and saying we are satisfied with making the playoffs questions our fandom. You are certainly not the only one here who has said that so hopefully others read it as well. I can ignore the multiple negative threads you create and for the most part I do but if I could get a sense in your posts that you were not accusing those of disagreeing with you as being something less of a fan you might be one of my favorite posters here.

I have agreed with many of your posts but I don;t always care for the manner in which they have been delivered.

I have objected to the GB status quo mode but people on this site have not blasted me like they have done to you. It's not the concept that GB needs to do more. It's the way in which it's said

Get rid of Uncle Tedy? Great but who is taking his place? There is no guarantee one of his subordinates i going to make great sweeping changes. It's prob going to be more of the same. (More on this later.)

Can Mikey? Ok fine. For who? Like it or not Mike has has success as a HC. How many more wins would a different HC have? We will never know. My guess is prob not more than 1 or 1.5 wins a year over the course of his career. It doesn't change very much if GB had a new dude in charge.

Get rid of Cappers? Yeah they can do that. It will prob help but Once again who are they going to get to take his place? I doubt another DC is going to be substantially different using the exact same players Dom has been given.

I have said it before and am reluctant to repeat myself but since I am getting to be an old fart that's one of our go to characteristics-

Packers Inc isn't interested is making a lot of wholesale changes. There isn't any benefit by making drastic changes.

Finishing the season at 10-6 and winning the division is the most profitable target for them.

They sell out the stadium. The have a huge waiting list. They bump the picket prices every single year. They are in the upper 1/4 for merchandise sales.

What else can they do on the field to improve their bottom line? Nothing. Adding new more expensive FA players won't. Changing management/coaching staff won't. Winning the SB every single year won't.

That's why they are buying all the property around the stadium. They only way to grow fatter is by bringing in non football revenue. By trying to lure more tourists to "Mecca".

I would like to see change on a lot of different levels and have called for it but in the end it is going to be business as usual.

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Well since I have the member you quoted on ignore, this is the 1st I saw this.

Of course he completely missed the point.
Doing what he does best and twist my post into some lame attempt to prove he is a better fan.

Seems nobody can come here and be even a little bit optimistic or post anything positive without being shouted down or being dragged into a never ending debate, which always end the same way.

I called his ass out in another thread and you shut it down.

Now here I am having to explain the obvious.

To go to The Super Bowl any team Must make The Playoffs!

How many wins? That depends on the year.

This current run of playoff births have saw The Packers finish anywhere between 15-1 and 8-7-1.

Funny The Packers went just as far in the playoffs when they went 8-7-1 as when they went 15-1.

Every year is different and most importantly ,
THERE'S NO FUCKING STYLE POINTS IN THE NFL! Just get there!

Being 4-4 is not where The Packers or The Lions for that matter, wanted to be when the season started, but here they both sit.
Well within reach of their goal.

I look forward to the next 8 weeks.
The challenge is there, we've already seen some of the young guys show they belong.

NOBODY KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN!

I get chastised and labeled names because I would rather see The Packers succeed than FAIL.

I take no joy in seeing them lose, of course I don't have this one single agenda of seeing the current regime all fired.

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I wasn't going to respond to this, but...

Most of you here are better fans than I am. It's pretty clear nobody would want me being their fan. Fan is short for "fanatic":

a person filled with ***excessive and single-minded zeal***, especially for an extreme religious or political cause.

Anyone who is a fan/fanatic by definition lacks objectivity. It's true in fans of anything. What I've said over the years hasn't been meant to demean anyone. You're better fans than I am...what you aren't that I am is able to be objective. You want to argue the point that you are just as objective but that's simply not the case. You can't be, by definition. I've said before I'm not a "fan" in the classic sense of the word. I'm as much critic as I am "fan". There are many of you that aren't "fans" in the classic sense but many of you are. There is NOTHING wrong with that save for the idea that you can be full of excessive zeal and single minded devotion and be rational about the Packers. It's not possible for some of you. I don't hate or look down on those who are this way, I simply point it out to say that I'm coming from a perspective that is vastly different than yours. That's all. There is blindness involved because if you think you can be a full blown fan of the Packers and offer rational objective thought you can not. You're too into them, too fanatical, to see them the way they really are.

Yes, I consider myself an observer more than a fan, although, I feel the highs and lows just like we all do. I've spent plenty of money on my time following the Packers. I've given as much or more attention to them as the typical fan. We are all "fans" but there are many different distinctions within the body of Packers fans. I freely admit most of you are better fans...you're going to love the Packers and see the best in them regardless.

Best way I could liken what I see here is... the true fanatics of this team would be as if someone hurt you in life, really did you wrong, you would just ignore that and continue putting yourself in harm's way very happy to just be with that person. A forgiving spirit which is a very admirable quality. An enabler, if you will. In this example, I would be the person calling out the bad hurtful behavior saying how much I hate it and it's wrong, but still continuing to subject myself to it but really hoping and demanding for better. In the end, my approach is calling out the bad behavior and demanding better while the other is just happy to be in the relationship at all. In the above, I would have issue with the person who is just blissful regardless of what is happening around them. I would want them to open their eyes and not allow themselves to be treated that way. How can you hate on me for that? That's all I'm trying to do is blow up false perceptions but many like it that way and I do need to respect everyone's choice as much as it bothers me to see them make it.

I reread this, and can imagine this is considered demeaning. It is not intended that way. Not sure how else to communicate the truth of this situation on this forum. However you are as a fan is fine. Many of you are similar to me in the regard that you can see the Packers for how they are. No question I'm the most vocal about the things I don't like. Is that any worse than the other way around? Someone calling me critical is fine with me...negative? No. It isn't negative to want to see something better than it is. If I want my kids to be better, and I discipline them to get them there is that wrong? Is that negative? It's positive. You may not care for my approach, but my aim is what matters.

No hate in me for any of you. I don't like a lot of what has been posted at me but I understand where I'm coming from and you don't.

Hoping for more civility in the future on both sides of this.

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Sorry beast. I thought it over for more than an hour. Personal attacks are not acceptable even if the other member really ticks you off. If I see someone else attacking you I would do the same thing.

I moved your post to a place that Zero or another mod can reinstate it if one of them thinks I acted wrong.

I typically like your posts and respect your opinion.

wpr

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Not so. I defended you from Day 1. I found you articulate and amusing (at least at first -- sometimes you pound the same drum so many times, it gets old, even when I agree with you), and you were echoing a lot of the same things I'd been saying for years, long before you showed up. I was just not around very much at the time, because I was too busy running my own football-related website. And now that I'm around a lot more than I used to be, I no longer have enough emotional energy to invest or motivation to engage in the kind of long, drawn-out, heated debates I used to think were so fun. It's just a game, after all. I can't even be arsed to buy a cable subscription to watch the festivities from home. There's no reason to let the vagaries and vicissitudes of a team of entitled millionaires govern my life.

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