uffda udfa
7 years ago

Paying somebody who has proven themselves in the organization and system vs bringing in a FA who hasn't. Across the NFL, more FA fail to live up to billing when they move to a different team compared to those who stay

pretty basic concept.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



I completely understand the concept. However, it's flawed when it doesn't consider who is actually better. It's like drafting for need instead of BPA. We should draft for need because we need a CB when a superstar RB might be there who is a much better player overall? That is a net loss to the organization but, hey, at least we filled a need. I get that concept, also. It's just the wrong concept. We have plenty of guys who have been in our system who have failed us when paid. That is why we have a rep of overpaying. We do it all the time and, yet, it's defended. Open your mind. Ted Thompson's way is not the only way nor is it the right or best way.

Better players = Better results It DOES NOT MATTER where they come from, inside or out. We've been so conditioned to accept that the Packer way is the right way due to 12 years of the same old same old that most have just acquiesced to Stockholm Syndrome. I do not believe most of you started out this way.
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago

I completely understand the concept. However, it's flawed when it doesn't consider who is actually better. It's like drafting for need instead of BPA. I get that concept, also. It's just the wrong concept. We have plenty of guys who have been in our system who have failed us when paid. That is why we have a rep of overpaying. We do it all the time and, yet, it's defended. Open your mind. Ted Thompson's way is not the only way nor is it the right or best way.

Better players = Better results It DOES NOT MATTER where they come from, inside or out. We've been so conditioned to accept that the Packer way is the right way due to 12 years of the same old same old that most have just acquiesced to Stockholm Syndrome. I do not believe most of you started out this way.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



you are assuming that the other players are better or would perform better then Cobb if they were brought in. You mention Maclin, over the years, his production has been very similar to cobb but in a different style offense. In his best year, defenses were more concerned about stopping McCoy than him so he got yards. could he have been better sure, he also could have been worse. He also was more expensive and we would likely be having a similar discussion if Ted had signed him.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
uffda udfa
7 years ago

you are assuming that the other players are better or would perform better then Cobb if they were brought in. You mention Maclin, over the years, his production has been very similar to cobb but in a different style offense. In his best year, defenses were more concerned about stopping McCoy than him so he got yards. could he have been better sure, he also could have been worse. He also was more expensive and we would likely be having a similar discussion if Ted had signed him.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



The Maclin thing was just in response to Barfarn's way over the top theatrics. I really liked Maclin coming out of Missouri. He was one of my favorite players in that draft. To say Cobb is wayyy better is ludicrous. Keep in mind Cobb is one of my all time favorite Packers but it doesn't blind me to reality. Randall has been TERRIBLE for us cap wise and production wise since he signed his deal. Yes, he's been injured...I get it, but he's only really lit it up when being a non primary option. He's a nice complementary piece. Maclin is the top WR in a moribund Chiefs offense. Would love to see what he could bring to us.

Point is...overpaying from within is not a sound strategy when it's your only strategy, or almost your only strategy. Moderation is key in lots of things and FA and paying your own are two of them. One trick pony GM'ing isn't helping.

I've said this a lot but it bears repeating in this debate. If we focus solely on draft and develop and all the other teams are using FA to augment their own draft and develop because make no mistake every team drafts and develops we're losing there. It's one less bullet in the chamber. It's pure common sense. FA is NOT evil or wrong or to always be eschewed. It is right... very right, and a tremendous way to augment your roster and add that piece you're not going to get in the draft, or from some 2nd year jump, to put you over the top. It has even worked for Ted. Woodson, Pickett and Howard Green. Minus those 3 we don't win the SB...all 3 FA's. Peppers added and a disgusting choke job away from the SB. See the connection? Cook comes in and makes a HUGE difference in our march this year. He doesn't even have to sign Reggie White. Just sign some good veteran players. Guys who get it. Oftentimes an average outsider looks far better than one of our overvalued own. Happened with Cook, Peppers who was pretty much done when we got him made a big impact compared to the garbage we grew ourselves. Needing FA is proof of Ted's failure. That is why he doesn't use it. He's stubborn. He wants to prove his way is right. That hardliner stance and his giant ego has killed this team for years. It really has whether Barfarn, you, or whomever wants to say it hasn't.

UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago
What I think you are missing, is nobody is saying we shouldn't be looking at FA more, hell everybody here has said Ted should be more active. Where you keep getting hung up on is the past and what you perceive as over paying. when reality is, at the time the contracts were pretty much market rate. We were not going to get them for cheaper, and we were not going to get an equivalent replacement any cheaper.

I was not a fan of the extension of Matthews at the time. I would have like to have waited and saved cap space to be used in an attempt to go "All In" at that time. I have no idea if doing so would have given us a better result in 2013. I also don't know what our team would look like today. Clay would have been a UFA in 2014, getting to the open market his price would have gone up, so we would either be sitting on more of a cap hit today, or not have had him for the last 3 years. There is no telling what the roster would look like today from just that one change.

Looking back is nothing but bitching in hindsight. Keep the discussion on our FA, our Roster and what we should do going forward. The past can't be changed.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
uffda udfa
7 years ago

What I think you are missing, is nobody is saying we shouldn't be looking at FA more, hell everybody here has said Ted should be more active. Where you keep getting hung up on is the past and what you perceive as over paying. when reality is, at the time the contracts were pretty much market rate. We were not going to get them for cheaper, and we were not going to get an equivalent replacement any cheaper.

I was not a fan of the extension of Matthews at the time. I would have like to have waited and saved cap space to be used in an attempt to go "All In" at that time. I have no idea if doing so would have given us a better result in 2013. I also don't know what our team would look like today. Clay would have been a UFA in 2014, getting to the open market his price would have gone up, so we would either be sitting on more of a cap hit today, or not have had him for the last 3 years. There is no telling what the roster would look like today from just that one change.

Looking back is nothing but bitching in hindsight. Keep the discussion on our FA, our Roster and what we should do going forward. The past can't be changed.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



Right, the past can't be changed but ignoring it creates more past you won't want brought up next year.

As to where you say I get hung up... Starks contract was never market rate. You get hung up on the fact that if Ted signed someone it must follow that it was a great deal for the Packers. No. There's no correlation whatsoever and each deal is subject to critical analysis. Hawk's deal was egregious. Same for Brad Jones. Brandon Chillar. Etc.

Further, and more importantly... not going to get an equivalent replacement cheaper? That is Ted's entire MO. He uses our drafts to go cheaper. See: Goodbye, Casey Hayward...Hello Damarious Randall and Quinten Rollins...but you're right...those two were not equivalents. You conclude there was nobody better because Ted never got anything done. There are trades, too. Right now, we could cut Cobb and add Cruz for less than Randall's money but the subjective comes in and Ted fans will say Cruz is way worse than Randall because Jeremy Maclin already is, too. You do realize you CAN spend MORE and get a lot better? Why are you hung up on equivalent mediocrity when paying more can get you far better?

Here's a scenario that isn't the past. We could cut Clay and Julius and add Calais Campbell with ease. Now, if Ted goes out and re ups Julius and extends Clay, all we'll hear is how there was no one better and Ted hit a homerun even though he likely will have overpaid these two, again. Heads will go in the sand and it will be argued that nobody could ever know if Calais would be better than both of those guys combined or if he'd even be an upgrade for one of them so it just had to be the right move. Let Clay and Julius go...eat the dead money on Clay and go get Ingram and Campbell. We can choose not to resign Perry, also. There are so many ways to do this but we're so myopic that the very narrow Ted way is the only solution here. It is not. Has not been, and never will be.
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago
People like you will bitch because you like to hear your own voice, or in this case read your own typing. your entire theory is based on if Ted had done something different the result would have been better.

In todays NFL market if you would try to cut Cobb, and bring in a proven player that can produce 800 yards and 5-6 TDs, you might be able to bring one in under Cobb's cap number this year, only because of Cap math, but overall you will be paying more.

If Ted cut Clay and signed Campbell as you wish. And it doesn't work, you would be right back here complaining about the move. Because that is who you are.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
uffda udfa
7 years ago

People like you will bitch because you like to hear your own voice, or in this case read your own typing. your entire theory is based on if Ted had done something different the result would have been better.

In todays NFL market if you would try to cut Cobb, and bring in a proven player that can produce 800 yards and 5-6 TDs, you might be able to bring one in under Cobb's cap number this year, only because of Cap math, but overall you will be paying more.

If Ted cut Clay and signed Campbell as you wish. And it doesn't work, you would be right back here complaining about the move. Because that is who you are.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



I'm to assume you don't like the sound of your voice when you're trumpeting Ted's virtues? People like you have some odd need to defend his honor because he works for the team you love. Why?

The way I read your empty response is you know that I'm right so you'll cease with debate and just go ad hominem and make me the issue.

Overall, you will be paying more? Show me in what universe that's truth? Not in this one. We could add a rookie who could produce that. Sterling Sheppard was nearly 700 yards (683) and 8 TD's for the awful Giants offense. He's the reason they're not going to pay Victor Cruz. We could draft our own Sterling Sheppard this draft, Cut Cobb, and save HUGE. So, again, it's not even remotely in this universe we couldn't cut Cobb and get an equivalent for cheaper. Oh, you meant solely in FA? Cruz could give us what Cobb does and maybe more for a lot less. That is my opinion. Denver is after him already. The always aggressive Elway getting in right away. We'll just sit tight and overpay. After all, we have too much dead money from the wonderful contract. The things I read on here are just indefensible but they're only outdone by the ferocity of the claim. I love that you love the Packers but you're not right at all. Not even close.

You are right about one thing...Yes, I assume making a move will equal better. Isn't that why moves are made...because the thinking is they will work out? But...Yes...they could fail. Every draft pick could fail so don't draft? Every extension could fail so don't extend? I guess Ted is just scared they won't so he doesn't make many moves. A passive fearful GM is wasting our glorious decades long special QB window. You don't see it. You never will until hindsight comes in and even then you'll choose to ignore it like you have right here.

If Campbell didn't work out, yes, that would be Ted's fault, but I would LOVE the idea that he took the bat off the shoulder and actually tried to become a champion rather than see this flatline I hope Caleb Hanie plays us so we can get there mentality we see year after year after year.

Nobody could ever say our GM is aggressive, driven to win, etc. Those are things you NEED to have in your GM. Ted is driven to stay competitive...stay the course. It's a losing shoot low mentality that has no place in the game of football where aggression and drive are paramount to success. I would argue his stated objective of being competitive is a lie. Competitive means: having or displaying a strong desire to be more successful than others.
Right. Sure. That's Ted. Just dying to be more successful than others. I agree when he's signing UDFA's from Nowhere State that is his mindset. He wants to be the smartest guy in the room. He doesn't care if the team is more successful than others unless he measures success in division championships and not SB's, and he just might.

You are what you are based on your actions. His actions have shown he's not about winning SB's. He's about making the playoffs. I can just read it now...can't win the SB without making the playoffs. Yup.
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago
Some people are just unbelievable. In one breath, upset because we didn't pay 5million a year to a CB who was expected to be 4th on the depth chart, in the next upset because we paid an average of 3 for a RB who was our #2.

Ted most have stole your girlfriend or something. Your hate has clearly destroyed your rational thinking.


Enjoy Hindsight Queen.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
uffda udfa
7 years ago

Some people are just unbelievable. In one breath, upset because we didn't pay 5million a year to a CB who was expected to be 4th on the depth chart, in the next upset because we paid an average of 3 for a RB who was our #2.

Ted most have stole your girlfriend or something. Your hate has clearly destroyed your rational thinking.


Enjoy Hindsight Queen.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



I'm unbelievable? What breath was I upset Ted didn't pay Hayward. I understood why he didn't but also understood it turned out to be the wrong move. Perfectly consistent. Total reality.

Hating the messenger is easy. I'm not wrong and I shouldn't have to act like it to keep the peace. Bring it strong. I appreciate strong opinions. If they aren't strong you shouldn't have them in the first place.

Don't hate Ted personally. I would HATE playing for someone like him who wasn't trying to win SBs. He's not my cup of tea.


UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


Barfarn
7 years ago



The point is we DO NOT have to resign our own. Who says we need to burn up our cap every single season with our own guys? That seems to be a pretty weak justification for not stepping into FA. It doesn't matter where a guy comes from...better players are the goal...not just ones from your pipeline.

Yes, Barfarn is right...the Packers are at a competitive disadvantage, in theory, no question. However, how are we able to keep guys from leaving with that competitive disadvantage? We overpay them. We need to overpay better players on the outside as well. We've been exposed to story after story about Ted being close to getting something done. That doesn't matter. He wasn't close because someone chose a warmer locale...he was close because someone offered more and he was unwilling to pay any more than some supposed set number or draft position. To not get Moss because we wouldn't part with a higher pick was a crushing thing to learn. Same thing with Marshawn Lynch. How much opportunity was lost in just those two "close" failures alone? Tony Gonazlez is another. Ted is a fine middling plodding GM but Vic realizes it's finally time to stop the flatlining and do something. Close isn't close enough anymore. Total hogwash to suggest guys like Lynch and Moss didn't come here because of some competitive disadvantage. The ONLY competitive disadvantage we really have is an ultra conservative GM who keeps the bat on his shoulder and lets prime pitches get called for strike 3 all the time.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Nothing is changing this year, Ketchum is a chump [and he's a servile little weasel😂]. Ted will do what he's always done each of his last 12 years: sign his own if he can; but this is 100% out of his control. If someone offers Perry 15M per [He's better than Jamie Collins, who got 12.5 per] and Perry wont take a huge discount, he's gone [oh and Clay's deal wont look so bad] If he dont spend the $$$ on his guys, he'll spend the cash on outside FAs [Maybe Barwin or Sean Lee]. If he signs his guys; then if there's a little left [I'm thinking now about 6-7M], Ted will use it to extend Dix or get one outside guy and that will be determined by who the outside guy is for what $$$. When it is over Ted will have all his 2017 chips in the center of the table...HE'S ALL-IN every year!

You are such a…such a…such a…journalist 😂 😂. You acknowledge the competitive disadvantage. And then reduce it to just “cold;” it is so so so much more.

The biggest obstacle is that GB is the opposite of diverse. And today Wisc.'s perception is even worse with Walker and Ryan as the face, many players will not come to a perceived or real Trumpsconsin. At least 8 NE players [1 is white] have publicly announced they’re not going to Whitehouse. I’d bet there’s more that feel the same way and are silent or are deciding that having a once in a lifetime chance to be a guest in Whitehouse trumps the hate/fear of Trump. None of these people would come to GB if they have other options and Ted doesn’t way overpay.

Many Black players not all that concerned with coming to GB will probably have their friends, wife, parents and wife’s parents discouraging the idea of the family being immersed and surrounded by white culture and/or the fear GB is a mini Trumplandia.

UNCONTROVERTED FACT: Outside free agents are much riskier than signing your own.

First, projecting how an NFL FA player will take to your playbook, play in your schemes, surrounded by your players, is very much like projecting how a college player with project. The only difference is you know the player has NFL talent. Well, generally we know the top 10 have NFL talent and many of them don’t make it.

Second, you know for sure if the player will have personality clashes with mates or coaches and you have a better handle of what kind of person your player is. A player cannot hide from you his Aldon Smithness or drug habit or cancerous side as well if he’s in your lockroom. A LOT of FAs are not resigned, because the team knows the guy has undisclosed medicals, is coked or roided up or has other destructive personal habits and behaviors and they don’t want him or are only willing to give very small guarantees.

Third, the main reason outside free agents fail is because the family is upset or the family or the player doesn't take to the move Or the player for the first time left his family back home [And then it takes an entire day to fly anywhere]. Some FAs after adjusting get a little better in their second year.

On Moss, they couldn’t agree on a contract, had NOTHING to do with a “higher pick.” Moss wanted a 1 yr and GB wasn’t parting with picks unless they got 2 years. Moss wanted to go to GB to have a big year with a good QB, they knew he wasn’t EVER going to stay in GB. Beside this is kiddy hindsight bitching. The O wasn’t the problem; we had Driver, Jennings, Jones, etc. those resources were better spent on the D anyways.

On Lynch again, your research is off. Lynch had to go where traded he was in his 4th year; and this is why Buffalo dumped him, they wanted to get something for him. Ted being smart is only giving up more than a 122 (4th) and 147 (5th) if they get a contract extension in the deal. Lynch wouldn’t sign a 3 year deal with GB; but did sign one in Seattle [3 yrs, 1M per]. It is because Lynch wanted to go to GB to get out of Buffalo; but for 3 years? HELL NO! It was about the contract and Lynch was so dead set against playing in GB for three years, he signed for 3M over 3 years, that's 1M per in Seattle to get out of Buffalo and stay out of GB.

Plus, our last 10 4th round picks: Sitton, Thompson, Lang, House, Daniels, Tretter, Franklin, Bahktieri, Bradford, Ryan. That’s 4 all-pros put of 10 and soon Ryan will be one. Devon House would be the 4th lost if we made the trade and losing House netted us Blake Martinez. House and Martinez helped more than Lynch ever would have, who BTW is a dick too in terms of wining the SB. And in Seattle he's allowed to be a dick, roid and coke up; he may not have been the player he was in Seattle inf he came to GB.

If you use real examples, I can address them; your perception that Ted wont sign outside guys cannot be logically supported, nor do your little "[non]proof by example" random hyperbole/outlier situations. Oh and Cobb is infinitely better than Maclin, who is below average. KC might cut him to save 5.2M; but 100% he's cut in '18 to save 8.6M.
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