wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
9 years ago
I was going to put the whole article here but I figure the evil NY Times  will find out and complain.


LONDON — A local, nonbinding referendum on a signed-and-sealed European trade deal might not normally make for high political drama. But if the Dutch say no on Wednesday to a two-year-old agreement between the European Union and Ukraine, the vote could cause major headaches for Brussels, the Dutch government and even the British one.

At issue is an association agreement signed in March 2014, just after the Maidan uprising that caused Ukraine’s president at the time, Viktor F. Yanukovych, to flee his country. The deal creates a free-trade area between the 28-nation bloc and Ukraine, and points toward a gradual economic convergence with the rest of Europe.




Mr. Putin is watching the referendum carefully, since a “no” vote “feeds into his agenda because it shows disunity in Europe on Ukraine policy,” Mr. Korteweg said. Mr. Putin is eager both to keep Crimea, which Russia annexed, and get the European Union to remove the sanctions on Russia. The Italian government, for example, has already questioned whether those sanctions might be reviewed when they are up for renewal in July.

But even the GeenPeil organizers say that the referendum has more to do with anger at the European Union than with Ukraine or Russia. The “yes” campaign is pressing that issue, warning that a “no” would give Mr. Putin what he wants. So whatever the intention of the referendum, the results are likely to be judged differently.

As Carl Bildt, the former Swedish foreign minister, said, “The Dutch referendum on Ukraine tomorrow might be a joke, but one that could have very serious consequences.”



I guess I am missing something. If a “Yes “ vote would in a sense be seen as “anti Russia” and “anti Putin” and the good Dutch people more or less don’t like or don’t trust Putin or Russia why will this even be an issue? I realize that GeenPeil thinks it is more than just that. Why not pick a referendum that speaks more clearly about the problems with the EU?

And take it a step further. Even if 90% of the vote is a “no” vote this is only one country in the EU. There are still 27 other countries as well. Do they feel the same way? If not, what harm is there in one nation showing their frustration and the measure passing anyway?

Perhaps Rocky can provide the Dutch perspective on this.


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Rockmolder
9 years ago

I guess I am missing something. If a “Yes “ vote would in a sense be seen as “anti Russia” and “anti Putin” and the good Dutch people more or less don’t like or don’t trust Putin or Russia why will this even be an issue? I realize that GeenPeil thinks it is more than just that. Why not pick a referendum that speaks more clearly about the problems with the EU?

And take it a step further. Even if 90% of the vote is a “no” vote this is only one country in the EU. There are still 27 other countries as well. Do they feel the same way? If not, what harm is there in one nation showing their frustration and the measure passing anyway?

Perhaps Rocky can provide the Dutch perspective on this.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



Well, I think that "yes" being an anti-Putin vote was one of the big reasons a lot of people did vote yes. I don't think Putin is popular anywhere in Western Europe. I also don't know if it's wise to pull their neighbour and longtime allie into the Western European sphere of power. I reckon it'd be more reason for a civil war between eastern and western Ukraine. Then again, that's just speculation on my part.

My biggest issue is that Ukraine is a rather corrupt country. They haven't managed to get that out of their political system for decades, but millions of Euro's and "supervision by the EU" should magically solve all of those problems. It's like wanting to join the Packers after going to the gym once, promising that you'll be a good football player in 2 years.

Another reason is that, if you read through it carefully, the association agreement contains a lot of paragraphs which very much read like a defensive pact. Also, while it's not in the agreement itsself, these agreements tend to lead to admission to the EU in the long run.

It's doubtful whether all Ukrainians benefit from the agreement, as well. Things like farmers having to follow EU guidelines will destroy quite a few businesses. They just don't have the funds and/or materials to do this.

Of course, the overhanging sentiment is that the EU does whatever it wants, without taking nations who think otherwise into account. I think that was a big part of the setup of this referendum initially. I can promise you, though, that this issue has had a lot of coverage and people seem to have read up on the issue quite a bit, rather than just "voting against Europe".

I feel like the situation is a bit like this. Would you currently vote for an agreement like this with Cuba? I imagine that streamlining trade relations would be a big plus, but putting them under your protection, fully opening borders and having an outlook on them becoming the 51st state might become a bit of a problem.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
9 years ago
Thanks. You added a lot of depth that was missing from the Times article. It makes a lot more sense now. I knew I could count on you.

Nothing is as simple as most newspaper stories make them out to be.
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