hardrocker950
8 years ago

Also I hope fans of other teams aren't browsing our site because we sound like spoiled assholes. My step-father who I grew up with my entire life is a die-hard Vikings fan. He fucking wishes Bridgewater could someday be accused of "stat whoring".

Originally Posted by: voiceofreason 



Although I get where some get irritated with the "state whoring" debate - some QBs couldn't if they wanted to. When things don't go smoothly, many of us get worked up - sometimes myself included. When this happens, I think to myself - "at least I'm not a Browns fan."
Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
8 years ago


Wow, just wow. You have to be joking right? Everything is wrong. Your first sentence claims that the vast majority of this site agrees with you. Disagree.

You claim that Tolzien would have made specific plays in specific situations that Rodgers did not. Complete speculation.

You claim you are not speculating, then try to back that up by providing statistics that are insignificant based on sample size. When I consistently used passer rating as an argument in the previous thread you blew me off. Now that you find 1 half in 1 game that Tolzien produced a passer rating that was 112 its relevant? Aaron Rodgers CAREER passer rating is 105.1. Rodgers has played in 122 NFL games compared to Tolzien's 3. You tell me which is a more relavant statistic. Disagree.

You claim that my opinion is "baseless, factless, and feckless" and then provide ZERO FACTS to argue yours.

Mentioning the fact that Seneca Wallace started a game for the Packers is cruel.

Your either Tolzien himself, related/friends with Tolzien, or crazy.

Originally Posted by: voiceofreason 



Wow just wow! The teacher gave you one assignment; read Dostoyevsky’s "The Idiot" and you failed.

I addressed the irrelevant nature of your CAREER [shouting] PR stat. 😂 The infinitely more relevant stat to this discussion was AR’s passer rating for the last 6 weeks. Sure, a career stat can be considered in proper context of potential; but right now, for 6 games, his PR is 76.6 and that is inflated with serious “garbage time stats” racked up in both Det games and v. Car when those teams had supposed insurmountable leads and the D lets up and DC’s play cautiously. When Aaron Rodgers is playing in the confines of this offense against a non-prevent D, his PR is around 45-50! These stats are for you; I have shown countless examples that prove Aaron Rodgers has just SUCKED [Other threads], the 76 PR rating doesn’t reflect how bad he is, the 45-50 stat does.

Even giving credit for a 76 PR, seasonally adjusted, puts Aaron Rodgers at #49 of all QBs and #30 of 32 for qualifying players; AR’s been worse than Manziel, Sanchez and EJ Manuel. And outside of garbage time stats; Aaron Rodgers is the worst QB in football by a large margin for 6 games. THE WORST. This is physically impossible, and the gravamen of this drop cant be explained by OL play, WR drops or any other ancillary stuff. Aaron Rodgers has a core attitude problem, no other position explains the facts at hand.

Now could Tolzien have amassed a 76.6 PR rating over the last six games? I think he easily would have and there may be legitimate rebuttal; but only a stone-cold dumbshit thinks that answer to this is an unequivocal NO. I’ve evaluated EVERY play Tolzien has snapped. It’s a good resume. The snaps he took in regular season on 40 or so scripted plays are quite impressive when put in context of his time in the system good limited practice. Do you realize how complicated the GB passing system is to learn? Do realize when he was 3rd string, he was QBing scout team simulating playing the opponents game plan each week? I think one with such strong opinions should first understand GB’s system and then learn to evaluate within the system; not blindly use stats.

Sure one needs a large sample to make a statistical evaluation; but talent evaluators nor I use stats to make their evaluations. The Pro evaluates plays; not statistical output. This is what Mike McCarthy means when he says, “STATS are for LOSERS.” Stat output often fails to accurately reflect quality of play; this is why stats only assist in communicating an evaluation, they cannot establish one.

Again, I AM NOT YOU! You need large sample sizes of stats because you use stats to establish your evaluations. I do not need that many because I watch THE GAME. See, like you, on Sunday, I watch GB play on TV. BUT, on Monday, you evaluate the players by reading stats with recollections of the game filtered through the prism of whether we won or lost. I evaluate by watching THE GAME. And this is important: the Hail Mary’s success is one play, it doesn’t change my opinion of how Aaron Rodgers performed on his other 66 snaps.

Many who don’t understand the game can’t discuss using reason and football acumen. I again invite you to do so, if you can. But, first please read “The Idiot.” Dostoyevsky brilliantly and artistically establishes the entire list of logical fallacies that people use to protect their emotional/irrational positions. It poignantly demonstrates how people utilize sleight of hand with fact and/or argument and as a last measure desperately berate and use sarcasm rather than address the issues with scholarship and 🏈 acumen.

It's not speculation; If Seneca Wallace's [perfect] efficiency in the system treats your opinions as "cruel;" maybe you should adjust your opinions to comport to the facts. If Wallace can be 5-5, playing in the system; so can Tolzien.

And why can't Aaron Rodgers execute scripted plays like he did even early this season [Games 1-6 66 1st points #1 in NFL; last 6 games 23 points, #31]?
Zero2Cool
8 years ago

And why can't Aaron Rodgers execute scripted plays like he did even early this season [Games 1-6 66 1st points #1 in NFL; last 6 games 23 points, #31]?

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



Execute scripted plays? Mike Holmgren used to script the first 15 plays. I believe Mike McCarthy said he didn't when he was calling the plays. Does Tom Clements script plays to open a game? Or are you trying to use scripted in the same fashion as practice?

Anyhow, you've been shown visible proof of how to correctly spell Scott Tolzien's name and refuse to correct it. It shows stubbornness and disregard to accuracy. There's really nothing to see here anymore.
UserPostedImage
Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
8 years ago

What scares me about this topic, I remember in 2012 Bob Mcguin writing an article about how The Packers could win without Aaron Rodgers.

Personally, I don't want history repeating itself.

I will just say Scott Tolzien is as ready as he physically can be and let's hope we never find out this year what level he is at.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan 



Agreed! Mcguin was wrong in 2012 and he'd be wrong with the idea today. I dont think we can win with Tolzien. Hopefully Aaron Rodgers gets his stuff together.
Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
8 years ago

Execute scripted plays? Mike Holmgren used to script the first 15 plays. I believe Mike McCarthy said he didn't when he was calling the plays. Does Tom Clements script plays to open a game? Or are you trying to use scripted in the same fashion as practice?

Anyhow, you've been shown visible proof of how to correctly spell Scott Tolzien's name and refuse to correct it. It shows stubbornness and disregard to accuracy. There's really nothing to see here anymore.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I did try to correct "Tolzien" in subsequent writing; How do I edit the topic?
Mike McCarthy doesn't rigidly "script plays" like Holmgren. They take tendencies of the D and repeatedly practice certain plays to attack certain formations given down and distance. Some of the plays are designed to check the D's game plan in addition to producing positive yards. The net affect is that it the first Q most if not all the plays have been practiced multiple times that week. The Scout D will be instructed to shift, blitz, then rush three, then stunt, play base, etc etc to prepare the O for reaction too D and AR's audibles. Some of the physical stuff is done in the classroom now that the practice rules limit practice time on field.
voiceofreason
8 years ago

Wow just wow! The teacher gave you one assignment; read Dostoyevsky’s "The Idiot" and you failed.

I addressed the irrelevant nature of your CAREER [shouting] PR stat. 😂 The infinitely more relevant stat to this discussion was AR’s passer rating for the last 6 weeks. Sure, a career stat can be considered in proper context of potential; but right now, for 6 games, his PR is 76.6 and that is inflated with serious “garbage time stats” racked up in both Det games and v. Car when those teams had supposed insurmountable leads and the D lets up and DC’s play cautiously. When Aaron Rodgers is playing in the confines of this offense against a non-prevent D, his PR is around 45-50! These stats are for you; I have shown countless examples that prove Aaron Rodgers has just SUCKED [Other threads], the 76 PR rating doesn’t reflect how bad he is, the 45-50 stat does.

Even giving credit for a 76 PR, seasonally adjusted, puts Aaron Rodgers at #49 of all QBs and #30 of 32 for qualifying players; AR’s been worse than Manziel, Sanchez and EJ Manuel. And outside of garbage time stats; Aaron Rodgers is the worst QB in football by a large margin for 6 games. THE WORST. This is physically impossible, and the gravamen of this drop cant be explained by OL play, WR drops or any other ancillary stuff. Aaron Rodgers has a core attitude problem, no other position explains the facts at hand.

Now could Tolzien have amassed a 76.6 PR rating over the last six games? I think he easily would have and there may be legitimate rebuttal; but only a stone-cold dumbshit thinks that answer to this is an unequivocal NO. I’ve evaluated EVERY play Tolzien has snapped. It’s a good resume. The snaps he took in regular season on 40 or so scripted plays are quite impressive when put in context of his time in the system good limited practice. Do you realize how complicated the GB passing system is to learn? Do realize when he was 3rd string, he was QBing scout team simulating playing the opponents game plan each week? I think one with such strong opinions should first understand GB’s system and then learn to evaluate within the system; not blindly use stats.

Sure one needs a large sample to make a statistical evaluation; but talent evaluators nor I use stats to make their evaluations. The Pro evaluates plays; not statistical output. This is what Mike McCarthy means when he says, “STATS are for LOSERS.” Stat output often fails to accurately reflect quality of play; this is why stats only assist in communicating an evaluation, they cannot establish one.

Again, I AM NOT YOU! You need large sample sizes of stats because you use stats to establish your evaluations. I do not need that many because I watch THE GAME. See, like you, on Sunday, I watch GB play on TV. BUT, on Monday, you evaluate the players by reading stats with recollections of the game filtered through the prism of whether we won or lost. I evaluate by watching THE GAME. And this is important: the Hail Mary’s success is one play, it doesn’t change my opinion of how Aaron Rodgers performed on his other 66 snaps.

Many who don’t understand the game can’t discuss using reason and football acumen. I again invite you to do so, if you can. But, first please read “The Idiot.” Dostoyevsky brilliantly and artistically establishes the entire list of logical fallacies that people use to protect their emotional/irrational positions. It poignantly demonstrates how people utilize sleight of hand with fact and/or argument and as a last measure desperately berate and use sarcasm rather than address the issues with scholarship and 🏈 acumen.

It's not speculation; If Seneca Wallace's [perfect] efficiency in the system treats your opinions as "cruel;" maybe you should adjust your opinions to comport to the facts. If Wallace can be 5-5, playing in the system; so can Tolzien.

And why can't Aaron Rodgers execute scripted plays like he did even early this season [Games 1-6 66 1st points #1 in NFL; last 6 games 23 points, #31]?

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



You can't even spell his name right you silly troll. Shove Dostoevsky down my throat at your own peril. I just got home from driving a great distance and paying many dollars to watch the Packers win. I've given you stats while you've given me bullshit. "To live without Hope is to Cease to live." My favorite Dostoevsky quote. I sincerely wish that you gain hope in our team. Otherwise Fuck right off. Drop the ban hammer on me, Its worth it.

blank
Zero2Cool
8 years ago
Passionate fans, gotta love them. As for Tolzien over Rodgers, enough already. Seems like a joke gone bad then stubbornly refused to acknowledge the bad joke.

Packers won. Cheer up!
UserPostedImage
bboystyle
8 years ago
Am i really reading this? Scott Tolzien can run this offense better then Rodgers? LOL. First off this offense is stalled because the WR's cant get separation when defenses play man coverage. Thats a fact, not an opinion. Many opposing teams and coaches have publicly stated that the Packer WR's are not very good at all and they can get away with playing man coverage all day long. There's a reason why our offense had some success today because the Cowboys went full retard in the first half and decided to play zone defense. The 2nd half they smarten up and play man coverage but our run game was on point so we were able to run on them but we couldnt throw on them.

Scott Tolzien is not good nor is he on Rodgers level. Some of you need a time off from talking about football and recollect your thoughts again if you think other wise especially if u think he can run this offense better
TheKanataThrilla
8 years ago
In all fairness. Tolzien showed some great poise in the pocket when put in against the Cowboys.
Porforis
8 years ago
Rodgers = Stat whore. Could have stayed in the game to kneel down, instead he throws Tolzien in there to protect his rushing yardage.

On a serious note, never get why they do that stuff. Sure, I guess it's possible someone on the D blows through the line and takes out his knee, but in a multiple-score game?
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Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : Even with the context it's ... what?
Mucky Tundra (20-Nov) : Matt LaFleur without context: “I don’t wanna pat you on the butt and you poop in my hand.”
beast (20-Nov) : We brought in a former Packers OL coach to help evaluate OL as a scout
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Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He landed good players thanks to high draft slot. He isn't good.
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beast (20-Nov) : More knowledge, just like bring in the Jets head coach
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : What? Why? Huh?
beast (19-Nov) : I wonder if the Packers might to try to bring Douglas in through Milt Hendrickson/Ravens connections
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : The Jets fired Joe Douglas, per sources
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Jets are a mess......
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Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : When you cycle the weeks, the total over remains for season. But you get your W/L for that selected week. Confusing.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the totals are accurate..nrvrtmind
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : I don't follow what you are saying. The totals are not the same as last week.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : ok so then wht are the totals the same as last week?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : NFL Pick'em is auto updated when NFL Scores tab is clicked
Martha Careful (19-Nov) : The offense was OK. Let's not forget the Bear defense is very very good.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Who updates the leaderboard on NFLPickem?
beast (19-Nov) : Has the Packers offense been worse since the former Jets coach joined the Packers?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Offense gets his ass in gear, this could be good.
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