Cheesey
10 years ago
Our defense was far from perfect, but unlike the last several years, they played well enough that IF our offense would have showed up, we could have won.

Our offense scored more points for the Lions (9) then they did for the Packers (7).
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Yerko
10 years ago

I think it's time to take a long hard look at Aaron Rodgers. We have to remember these are the first few games after his broken collar bone. He played at Chicago and in playoffs vs. SF. Seattle, NYJ and today. He's not been particularly good in any of the 5 games since his injury. Yes, he had a nice 2nd half with Jordy last week, but he's been pretty average otherwise. I guess that is a function of playing vs. some better teams.

How does Aaron Rodgers play like this vs. a terrible Detroit secondary? How? Seattle was on him... today is on him. Rocky Syndrome...I'm telling you. This guy has his ring, the accolades, commercials every other minute during NFL games, and the huge contract. I don't think he has the desire he once had.

One must consider the year he won league MVP he had little running game and Marshall freaking Newhouse as one of his tackles. To do what he did behind that line he had back when he won the MVP is nothing short of miraculous. His line isn't that bad now compared to then but he is nowhere near as good plus he actually has a legit RB. It doesn't add up that this doesn't have everything to do with Aaron Rodgers. If it is about Aaron, I look nowhere else than motivation which I don't think he has anymore. People need to write him off and he needs companies to tell him he's not as marketable anymore to get his edge back. He's all world with an edge...okay without.

What a waste to get what is likely one of the few good defensive performances we'll see all year and follow that with that kind of offense. UGLY.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



I thought this thread was about the offensive and defensive line...not conspiracy theories about Rodgers. [wtf]

As I stated in the "Packers aren't that good" thread, I don't think the offensive line is bad when Bulaga is starting. There isn't a single offensive line in the league that is going to give their quarterback 5-6 seconds to throw the ball every snap. The offensive line is giving the time needed a majority of the time for a pass to happen. In terms of the run game, the play calling is doing them no favors. This isn't a run first offensive line so to sit there and continually call toss plays (or anything outside the tackles) is not beneficial to them (nor the Packers runningbacks). Sitton and Lang can block straight up and Sitton is probably the purest run-blocking lineman the Packers have. TJ Lang is decent at most and usually gets stonewalled by the bigger defensive linemen. Linsley is unproven at the moment but he finally met his match yesterday in Nick Fairley. Bakhtiari shows no signs of a run-blocker and he is still raw. Bulaga is probably the most balanced linemen out of the five.

I am unsure about the defensive line at this moment. While Raji was coming off a down year, his absence due to injury this season put a big dent in that unit. The defense is relying on Guion and an UDFA in Pennel. Josh Boyd is constantly on his back. The bright side to this unit is Jones and Neal but Neal has been very underwhelming this season. That's only due to his outrageous attitude and talk during training camp though. He, like McCarthy, got a lot of fans hopes up with the way he was talking about training camp. If you want to include Neal and Peppers in this category (when they run a 4-3) the unit improves a bit.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago
Back to the OP's question.

My short answer is that it's everything. It's a lack of execution. It's a lack of ability. It's a lack of coaching. It's a lack of player acquisition. And its a failure of will. When it comes to the lines of the Packers, there's so many problems that you can throw a dart just about anywhere and hit an explanation.

I do think the biggest problem is the lack of will, but you've all heard that rant of mine before so I won't repeat it again. [Added as I completed the post -- obviously I couldnt stop myself]

Other than that, though, I don't know if you can even rank the problems. Though I'll try.

Biggest problem: Player acquisition. Speaking of the OL only, I have believed for some time now that for some reason the Packer front office/scouting/personnel department just lacks something when it comes to judging offensive line quality. We have had the same arguments about draft-and-develop, free agency, using high draft choices, potential, etc etc year after year. And apart from going out and picking up big name free agents, Ted and his people have after the first year given serious attention to the OL virtually every year. High draft picks, low draft picks, low- and medium-priced free agents. And we have what... Sitton the stud and the rest who go from ok/servicable (Lang) to "good grief". And nothing I have seen in the first and third games (I have to pass on the JEts game since I never saw any of it).
I'm starting to believe that the OL is doomed to woulda/coulda/shoulda unless and until Ted and company decide to go outside their current personnel and hire some new or established gurus of identifying college and used pro talent.
And it may be the same on the DL. But I think the core problems lie more elsewhere. Which brings up ...

Second biggest problem: Coaching and coaching philosophy/approach. To me, when a team shows a lack of sufficient will to dominate, the focus should start with the coaches. I don't know where the fire gets lit, if its by the head coach, or the coordinators, or the position coaches. But I see none of that will to dominate here. I see finesse. I see confidence in systems and players. I see paying attention to execution and pad level and foot work and all that. I see striving to win. But apart from a few players I don't see that systemic and reinforced and repeated drive to dominate (Daniels comes to mind, as does Sitton and, for me anyway, Rodgers).

Don't tell me you cant get modern teams to have that attitude. There are teams that have had it, and that have it. But the Packers are not one of them. Pittsburgh has had it for years; so did the Ravens; so did the Giants, all on defense. The Jimmy Johnson Cowboys had it and the Walsh 49ers had it and the Belichek Patriots used to have it on the offensive line.

I've said it before and I'll say it until I die -- A lot of those Packer players in the Hall of Fame aren't there because they were the most skilled or the best athletes for their position or system. They are there because they had that unshakeable will to dominate.

Starr is the obvious one, here. He was a 17th round draft choice, for crying out loud. By modern standards, he was half the athlete Rodgers is or Favre was. But he sustained that drive for his entire career. You could see it even at the end, when he hung on too long and his shoulder was toast and the body simply wouldn't work anymore. He ran out of gas, but he was always a muscle car of will.

Nitschke is another. I've been debating all my life with Bear fans as to whether Nitschke or Butkus was the better middle backer. But physically, talent-wise, it wasn't even close. Butkus had it all (including the will, by the way). The fact that Nitschke's even in the conversation is testimony to the man's will. He defined ferocity, indomitability, refusal to lose, insistence on domination on every play. Butkus had all of those things, too, of course. But this isn't just the homer in me saying this, if I were on the opposing team's OL and had to face one of the two, I'd choose to go against Butkus every time. Because while Butkus was Hall of Fame first-ballot scary, Nitschke personifiedthe word.

Adderley was Hall-of-Fame talent, so was Gregg, so was Davis and probably Henry Jordan. Wood? Will defined the man. The recently-elected Robinson. Will.

The people not in the Hall -- the Skoronskis and the Thurstons and the Dales and the Dowlers and the Flemings and the Kramers (both of them). Will.

Jethro Pugh had more talent in his left foot than Bowman and Kramer had together. But when it came down to 17 seconds and umpteen below and a field of ice? They had the will.

So where did they get it? How did Green Bay manage to get that kind of dominant team put together? To make player after player dig deeper than they knew they could, to do more than they knew they could, consistently, again and again.

Okay, Lombardi was a once in a lifetime guy. Well, he isn't the only one who's had teams demonstrate that will since he died. Don't give me this excuse that it isn't possible.

If you convince yourself the only way is to be smarter or more finesse-ish or trickier or whatever than the other guy, well then you're well and truly fucked and destined to be nothing more than another contender .

I actually think Mike McCarthy has that will to dominate in him. But for whatever reason, he outthinks too much or trusts that will too little in his gameplanning, playcalling, practice coaching, whatever.

As for the rest of the coaching staff, I dunno know where it is anymore. Edgar Bennett probably yes. The last DC I've seen have it was Shurmur.

Third, ability and fitting your players to their strengths, not your system.
This is even more clearly on coaching if you ask me. Yes, it can be laid in part at the acquisition people -- to paraphrase the only Wolf who matters, if you don't have chickens you have to make do with chicken shit. But if that's what you have, then use it where its best, as fertilizer, not as food. Take Carl Bradford for the most recent example. Everyone who said positive things about him said he was best, and probably by far, as an ILB. So what do they do with him? They use most of minicamp/training camp shoehorning him as a backup OLB? He may never amount to a real chicken; but you've just spent his first offseason in your care trying to prove you're smarter than all of those people who said he was best at another position. Whether he pans out or not, you've wasted a year.

Fourth, execution. Okay, maybe part of this is the chicken v chicken shit problem, too. But this team has had execution problems for years -- bad tackling, bad angles, bad blocking, etc. I am so tired of hearing that such-and-such player is our highest scored player, and thinking this player looks like mediocrity personified. If your backups are doing D-quality work and you're better with C-quality, your job should be no safer than theirs.

So I guess I'm back with the coaching staff and front-office yet again, after all. One year can be blamed on learning the system. Two can be blamed on player ability and execution. But if the mediocrity lasts for year after year after year with an occasional blast of amazingness (see second half of 2010), then the burden lies with coaches and it lies with the front office. If you're still trying to make chicken out of chickenshit, when what you really should be trying to get is some beef bulls with serious attitude, you're not getting the job done.

I remember when I was a kid. My uncle had this one bull he kept in a corner of his barn. Damn thing was terrifying. I didn't want to go near that stall for anything. Was the orneriest cuss of an animal I've ever seen. To this day I don't know what my uncle saw in him. And I don't know how many men it took to move him.

That's the kind of OL and DL will I want to see, though. Apart from Sitton on one side and Daniels on the other, I'm not sure where it's going to come from.

Ain't going to happen anytime soon, of course, so I'll likely keep bitching.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
nerdmann
10 years ago

Back to the OP's question.

My short answer is that it's everything. It's a lack of execution. It's a lack of ability. It's a lack of coaching. It's a lack of player acquisition. And its a failure of will. When it comes to the lines of the Packers, there's so many problems that you can throw a dart just about anywhere and hit an explanation.

I do think the biggest problem is the lack of will, but you've all heard that rant of mine before so I won't repeat it again. [Added as I completed the post -- obviously I couldnt stop myself]

Other than that, though, I don't know if you can even rank the problems. Though I'll try.

Biggest problem: Player acquisition. Speaking of the OL only, I have believed for some time now that for some reason the Packer front office/scouting/personnel department just lacks something when it comes to judging offensive line quality. We have had the same arguments about draft-and-develop, free agency, using high draft choices, potential, etc etc year after year. And apart from going out and picking up big name free agents, Ted and his people have after the first year given serious attention to the OL virtually every year. High draft picks, low draft picks, low- and medium-priced free agents. And we have what... Sitton the stud and the rest who go from ok/servicable (Lang) to "good grief". And nothing I have seen in the first and third games (I have to pass on the JEts game since I never saw any of it).
I'm starting to believe that the OL is doomed to woulda/coulda/shoulda unless and until Ted and company decide to go outside their current personnel and hire some new or established gurus of identifying college and used pro talent.
And it may be the same on the DL. But I think the core problems lie more elsewhere. Which brings up ...

Second biggest problem: Coaching and coaching philosophy/approach. To me, when a team shows a lack of sufficient will to dominate, the focus should start with the coaches. I don't know where the fire gets lit, if its by the head coach, or the coordinators, or the position coaches. But I see none of that will to dominate here. I see finesse. I see confidence in systems and players. I see paying attention to execution and pad level and foot work and all that. I see striving to win. But apart from a few players I don't see that systemic and reinforced and repeated drive to dominate (Daniels comes to mind, as does Sitton and, for me anyway, Rodgers).

Don't tell me you cant get modern teams to have that attitude. There are teams that have had it, and that have it. But the Packers are not one of them. Pittsburgh has had it for years; so did the Ravens; so did the Giants, all on defense. The Jimmy Johnson Cowboys had it and the Walsh 49ers had it and the Belichek Patriots used to have it on the offensive line.

I've said it before and I'll say it until I die -- A lot of those Packer players in the Hall of Fame aren't there because they were the most skilled or the best athletes for their position or system. They are there because they had that unshakeable will to dominate.

Starr is the obvious one, here. He was a 17th round draft choice, for crying out loud. By modern standards, he was half the athlete Rodgers is or Favre was. But he sustained that drive for his entire career. You could see it even at the end, when he hung on too long and his shoulder was toast and the body simply wouldn't work anymore. He ran out of gas, but he was always a muscle car of will.

Nitschke is another. I've been debating all my life with Bear fans as to whether Nitschke or Butkus was the better middle backer. But physically, talent-wise, it wasn't even close. Butkus had it all (including the will, by the way). The fact that Nitschke's even in the conversation is testimony to the man's will. He defined ferocity, indomitability, refusal to lose, insistence on domination on every play. Butkus had all of those things, too, of course. But this isn't just the homer in me saying this, if I were on the opposing team's OL and had to face one of the two, I'd choose to go against Butkus every time. Because while Butkus was Hall of Fame first-ballot scary, Nitschke personifiedthe word.

Adderley was Hall-of-Fame talent, so was Gregg, so was Davis and probably Henry Jordan. Wood? Will defined the man. The recently-elected Robinson. Will.

The people not in the Hall -- the Skoronskis and the Thurstons and the Dales and the Dowlers and the Flemings and the Kramers (both of them). Will.

Jethro Pugh had more talent in his left foot than Bowman and Kramer had together. But when it came down to 17 seconds and umpteen below and a field of ice? They had the will.

So where did they get it? How did Green Bay manage to get that kind of dominant team put together? To make player after player dig deeper than they knew they could, to do more than they knew they could, consistently, again and again.

Okay, Lombardi was a once in a lifetime guy. Well, he isn't the only one who's had teams demonstrate that will since he died. Don't give me this excuse that it isn't possible.

If you convince yourself the only way is to be smarter or more finesse-ish or trickier or whatever than the other guy, well then you're well and truly f*cked and destined to be nothing more than another contender .

I actually think Mike McCarthy has that will to dominate in him. But for whatever reason, he outthinks too much or trusts that will too little in his gameplanning, playcalling, practice coaching, whatever.

As for the rest of the coaching staff, I dunno know where it is anymore. Edgar Bennett probably yes. The last DC I've seen have it was Shurmur.

Third, ability and fitting your players to their strengths, not your system.
This is even more clearly on coaching if you ask me. Yes, it can be laid in part at the acquisition people -- to paraphrase the only Wolf who matters, if you don't have chickens you have to make do with chicken sh*t. But if that's what you have, then use it where its best, as fertilizer, not as food. Take Carl Bradford for the most recent example. Everyone who said positive things about him said he was best, and probably by far, as an ILB. So what do they do with him? They use most of minicamp/training camp shoehorning him as a backup OLB? He may never amount to a real chicken; but you've just spent his first offseason in your care trying to prove you're smarter than all of those people who said he was best at another position. Whether he pans out or not, you've wasted a year.

Fourth, execution. Okay, maybe part of this is the chicken v chicken sh*t problem, too. But this team has had execution problems for years -- bad tackling, bad angles, bad blocking, etc. I am so tired of hearing that such-and-such player is our highest scored player, and thinking this player looks like mediocrity personified. If your backups are doing D-quality work and you're better with C-quality, your job should be no safer than theirs.

So I guess I'm back with the coaching staff and front-office yet again, after all. One year can be blamed on learning the system. Two can be blamed on player ability and execution. But if the mediocrity lasts for year after year after year with an occasional blast of amazingness (see second half of 2010), then the burden lies with coaches and it lies with the front office. If you're still trying to make chicken out of chickensh*t, when what you really should be trying to get is some beef bulls with serious attitude, you're not getting the job done.

I remember when I was a kid. My uncle had this one bull he kept in a corner of his barn. Damn thing was terrifying. I didn't want to go near that stall for anything. Was the orneriest cuss of an animal I've ever seen. To this day I don't know what my uncle saw in him. And I don't know how many men it took to move him.

That's the kind of OL and DL will I want to see, though. Apart from Sitton on one side and Daniels on the other, I'm not sure where it's going to come from.

Ain't going to happen anytime soon, of course, so I'll likely keep bitching.



Originally Posted by: Wade 



Biggest problem: INJURIES. Ted got us guys like Nick Collins, Terrence Murphy, BJ Raji, Johnathan Franklin, etc. But they're not out there helping us win. Why? Because of injuries. Year after year. Sure as the sun rises.

Second biggest problem: Not showing up ready to play. Going into lulls.

“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
evad04
10 years ago
Nice post, Wade. "Will to dominate" is a bit nebulous, though. I think it makes for a nice way of encapsulating what a HOF corps had in common. It's not the easiest thing to make sense of in the present -- at least how I see it.

I will say that Datone Jones stood out on some plays against Detroit. I made a conscious effort to watch him on a handful of snaps and he had a good bull rush and was really going after it. We shouldn't all give up on him so soon. He was known for being a high-energy, violent-hands kinda player at UCLA. I'm hoping the inconsistency we've seen from him thus far has been more because of adapting to the pro game than a talent deficiency.

Mike Neal has also played well in spurts. Wish he'd wrap-up a little better at the initial contact.
William Henderson didn't have to run people over. His preferred method was levitation.
"I'm a reasonable man, get off my case."
steveishere
10 years ago

Nice post, Wade. "Will to dominate" is a bit nebulous, though. I think it makes for a nice way of encapsulating what a HOF corps had in common. It's not the easiest thing to make sense of in the present -- at least how I see it.

I will say that Datone Jones stood out on some plays against Detroit. I made a conscious effort to watch him on a handful of snaps and he had a good bull rush and was really going after it. We shouldn't all give up on him so soon. He was known for being a high-energy, violent-hands kinda player at UCLA. I'm hoping the inconsistency we've seen from him thus far has been more because of adapting to the pro game than a talent deficiency.

Mike Neal has also played well in spurts. Wish he'd wrap-up a little better at the initial contact.

Originally Posted by: evad04 



One thing to note about Datone is he was facing a really good G most of the day in Larry Warford too. Knocked him on his ass a time or two as well.
evad04
10 years ago

One thing to note about Datone is he was facing a really good G most of the day in Larry Warford too. Knocked him on his ass a time or two as well.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



Here he is dropping back into coverage. This guy is a helluva athlete. Hopes he can put it all together.

(Not sure how to embed vine videos ... so here's the link)

Datone zone blitz vs. Detroit 

And another: Datone pancaking Lions guard 

And another: Pressure on Stafford 

*Clips all came from Justis Mosqueda, @JuMosq
William Henderson didn't have to run people over. His preferred method was levitation.
"I'm a reasonable man, get off my case."
beast
10 years ago

Here he is dropping back into coverage. This guy is a helluva athlete. Hopes he can put it all together.

(Not sure how to embed vine videos ... so here's the link)

Datone zone blitz vs. Detroit 

And another: Datone pancaking Lions guard 

And another: Pressure on Stafford 

*Clips all came from Justis Mosqueda, @JuMosq

Originally Posted by: evad04 



THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT!!

I really like watching Jones in coverage... looks like a wobby LB that looks like he played it very well.

As for the pancaking... looks like he's doubled team by the OG and OT... but he half way splits them and gets sandwiched in there... and Jones and the OT both pushing against the OG knocks him on his butt. Though looked very good seeing as he was being doubled team.



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Smokey
  • Smokey
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
10 years ago
If the Bears dominate the Packers O-line as others HAVE DONE, will that convince some of you that there is an O-line problem ? [boxing]
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