texaspackerbacker
11 years ago

You just blindly throwing blame around now... of course the best passer is going to get doubled team. It's call chip blocking when a TE, FB or RB chip in to help... that has NOTHING to do with the big fatties job. They're not suppose to cover the light guys until the ball is in their hand (which it wasn't when they were chip blocking Matthews). Teams scheme their offense to slow Matthews down... there really is nothing they can do about it other than get a pass rusher that's better than him to take attention off of him.


People just don't get understand or care about the dirty work inside linemen are asked to do... 😞

Originally Posted by: beast 



You make my point about Matthews. Teams scheme to stop him, and what else is there? Not a helluva lot.

Daniels offered a glimmer of hope, but he didn't play enough. With the fat pieces of crap gone, and Worthy and Datone Jones getting a lot more snaps too, and Boyd, let 'em try to scheme against Matthews! And if Perry can stay healthy and improve, even better. I guarantee the pass coverage will seem a whole lot better if we can get that pressure from the line.
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beast
11 years ago

You make my point about Matthews. Teams scheme to stop him, and what else is there? Not a helluva lot.

Daniels offered a glimmer of hope, but he didn't play enough. With the fat pieces of crap gone, and Worthy and Datone Jones getting a lot more snaps too, and Boyd, let 'em try to scheme against Matthews! And if Perry can stay healthy and improve, even better. I guarantee the pass coverage will seem a whole lot better if we can get that pressure from the line.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



I didn't make your point... your point was the DL was to blame for Matthews double teams and you were dead wrong about that.

I made my point of you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to DL that aren't being asked to penetrate right off the bat... they used the big DL to free up the LBers more often... though I don't know why I'm trying to explain, I doubting you care. Just want to complain about something and so you're picking on the guys that are asked to be the least flashy.. and you'll never get that it seems.


But some how that "not helluva lot" Hawk, Neal, Perry, Daniels all set career records in number of sacks even though they saw more double teams as Matthews sat on the bench more often this season.


There is dirty work in football that ask guys not to be flashy... fans will always complain about that player not being good enough of a play maker but they're doing a great job of being a role player for the team because the teams needs someone to do the dirty work and be the glue of the team. And honestly I've very sad that Pickett will never get the credit he deserves of being the double gap glue. He's not a play maker but man has he set others up to make a ton of plays doing a lot of the dirty work alone the DL.

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steveishere
11 years ago

You can disrupt with out penetrating, like Pickett, he was great at disrupting by going side to side, east and west, while he struggled to penetrate.



I COMPETELY AGREE!!! ... though Pickett was on the injury report some and so it could of been injuries, but we can't tell for sure from the outside.


Originally Posted by: beast 



Maybe back in the day, he sucked at it last year and got blown up too much just like Raji. Jolly was the only big guy who could do it last year but he didn't seem to have the stamina to keep up all game. Like I said unless their job was to stand there and play patty cake at the line of scrimmage then they really weren't doing their jobs.
play2win
11 years ago

I didn't make your point... your point was the DL was to blame for Matthews double teams and you were dead wrong about that.

I made my point of you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to DL that aren't being asked to penetrate right off the bat... they used the big DL to free up the LBers more often... though I don't know why I'm trying to explain, I doubting you care. Just want to complain about something and so you're picking on the guys that are asked to be the least flashy.. and you'll never get that it seems.


But some how that "not helluva lot" Hawk, Neal, Perry, Daniels all set career records in number of sacks even though they saw more double teams as Matthews sat on the bench more often this season.


There is dirty work in football that ask guys not to be flashy... fans will always complain about that player not being good enough of a play maker but they're doing a great job of being a role player for the team because the teams needs someone to do the dirty work and be the glue of the team. And honestly I've very sad that Pickett will never get the credit he deserves of being the double gap glue. He's not a play maker but man has he set others up to make a ton of plays doing a lot of the dirty work alone the DL.

Originally Posted by: beast 



beast, Pickett has been this solid player you speak of with little reward for years. Good post. Dom does have these space eaters like Pickett and Raji in there for this purpose. No question. Our LBs and Safeties simply were not getting home to finish plays as the scheme was designed. Add to that, Pickett was playing hurt for nearly all of the 2013 season. He has been a warrior for us. He is one player I would readily welcome back for 2014 if they choose to sign him.

For instance, how many times did we see Hawk blow in to make a stop with no help coming in behind him? I saw that quite a lot last season. This is supposed to be an attacking defense, but it has too many pieces missing.

However, the only thing Pickett has working against him now is his age. He might be getting a bit long in the tooth to re-sign. Last season was probably his worst since 2006. That is a long time of providing dependable play, but if he wears out, which it was looking like last year, it may be best to add some youth there for 2014. Ted has a big decision to make with him.

Raji has had an inordinate number of snaps early in his career. Things evened out over the past two seasons there, and I thought we would see more effective play from him, but he has looked disappointing. That was readily apparent last season. Space eater or no space eater. He whiffed badly too often or looked to be going through the motions. That was a disappointment, and now I really question re-signing him. We may be better off adding two more to replace both of these guys, especially with other giant contracts coming up next season.

Both Pickett and Raji, together, will command a lot of dough to keep on the Packers roster, and I am now questioning whether that would be a good idea. I'm not seeing a real value return that can be counted on. Maybe with Pick in a cap friendly deal.
+1
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
11 years ago
Looking on his entire past with the Packers, I'm with beast and play2win on PIckett. I have no problem with giving him the benefit of doubt that "last year's poor play was injury-related and bringing him back if the numbers aren't bad. I have no problem with having "space occupying fatties" on the roster.

I see no reason to bring Raji back, though. Top DL are hard to come by, but journeymen type of his inconsistency -- because that, really, is all he has demonstrated -- can be found in late rounds or on the "street". Has he truly distanced himself from the other second/third string DLs whose names no one knows? I don't think so. He's a guy, that's all.
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DakotaT
11 years ago
For me it comes down to a choice between Pickett and Jolly - and for me, Jolly has a heartbeat and a motor. He also makes the occasional outstanding play. Boyd is already better than Raji and will surpass Pickett soon. Hopefully we can have our choice of Hageman or Nix in the draft. I don't see Pickett as a major need, like some of the sentimental fans do.
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play2win
11 years ago

For me it comes down to a choice between Pickett and Jolly - and for me, Jolly has a heartbeat and a motor. He also makes the occasional outstanding play. Boyd is already better than Raji and will surpass Pickett soon. Hopefully we can have our choice of Hageman or Nix in the draft. I don't see Pickett as a major need, like some of the sentimental fans do.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



Dude! How about getting both Hageman and Nix? Trade up. Trade away from next season if he has to. Why the hell not? Nab 'em both and our D is instantly better (kind of, as we need a legit S in the worst way as well as a new ILB in place of the ghost Brad Jones - precisely why we need to hit on a FA or two).

Jolly seems like a really nice story, but I question whether he is best for us moving forward. He seemed to lose all of his steam pretty early last season and was ineffective, far more than I would have expected.
texaspackerbacker
11 years ago
The whole concept of big immobile pieces of crap "clogging and protecting" is flawed. I never liked Pickett even when he was less of a piece of crap than he was last season. We DON'T need to replace them with new immobile blobs. We got Jolly and Boyd for the rotation and short yardage. That's enough super-sizing.

And hell yes, Matthews DID get double teamed because the line had no capability to take the pressure off him. True, some of those guys had "record numbers of sacks" - compared to what in their past? Only Daniels looked like a threat as a pass rusher among those mentioned, and he didn't start.

My point, I say again, is that if our D-Line is mobile and capable of pass rushing - Daniels, Worthy, and D. Jones getting the bulk of the snaps, teams won't dare to scheme against Matthews, as the line will get pressure on the QB. Similarly, if the D-Line can actually play off blocks and tackle, our ILBs and the OLBs can do what LBs are supposed to do - be the SECOND line of defense against the run and/or run blitz without as much risk of getting burned for a big play.
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beast
11 years ago

Maybe back in the day, he sucked at it last year and got blown up too much just like Raji. Jolly was the only big guy who could do it last year but he didn't seem to have the stamina to keep up all game. Like I said unless their job was to stand there and play patty cake at the line of scrimmage then they really weren't doing their jobs.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



I was talking about Pickett overall time with the Packers and yes due to age and/or injury he lost something last year. And I'm not saying the Packers should resign him unless they think/know he can be the player of before last year (and his poor play was due to his injuries). And even then I'd be careful how much money went in because he could drop off at any point (if he hasn't already).

Honestly I really like Jolly but I think he's getting over rated because he made some GREAT flash plays but over all was pretty inconsistent partly due to that stamina issue (which might of fixed with an offseason.) BUT I feel like the biggest thing that's being overlook is Jolly's neck injury. That in it's self could be career ending.

For me it comes down to a choice between Pickett and Jolly - and for me, Jolly has a heartbeat and a motor. He also makes the occasional outstanding play. Boyd is already better than Raji and will surpass Pickett soon. Hopefully we can have our choice of Hageman or Nix in the draft. I don't see Pickett as a major need, like some of the sentimental fans do.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



Boyd has already surpassed Raji in pass rush, but I doubt Boyd would surpass the Pickett of before 2013 this season. Maybe in stats but not in all the dirty work.

I think the NT position is a NT, maybe not Pickett because he might not be back to his pre 2-13 self.

Dude! How about getting both Hageman and Nix? Trade up. Trade away from next season if he has to. Why the hell not? Nab 'em both and our D is instantly better (kind of, as we need a legit S in the worst way as well as a new ILB in place of the ghost Brad Jones - precisely why we need to hit on a FA or two).

Jolly seems like a really nice story, but I question whether he is best for us moving forward. He seemed to lose all of his steam pretty early last season and was ineffective, far more than I would have expected.

Originally Posted by: play2win 




Because we don't know if Nix or Hageman will be any good in the NFL or worth a 1st round pick.

You got to LOVE Nix's hustle but does he have enough potential? He isn't the most talented guy, more like the hardest worker, which is great but also could mean he's going to get drafted higher than his potential. Then again he might excel in the NFL like he did in college. But it's unclear in my mind.


I still honestly haven't quite figured out why/how Hageman looks amazing some times and then completely disappears at other times. Makes me think of him a bit like Raji... flashes and disappears flashes and disappears.


This is probably a horrible idea, but SS Richardson seemed to out play FS Jennings, but they kept putting Jennings back in. I think they might prefer Burnett at SS and like being able to flip SS and FS to keep the QB guessing some, which they can't do as much as Richardson (as he'd struggle at FS)... but I've wondered how would Richardson look if he put on 10 to 15 pounds and got a shot at coverage ILB. Yes he could be blown up in the run game some but so does Brad Jones.
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beast
11 years ago

The whole concept of big immobile pieces of crap "clogging and protecting" is flawed.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



Mmm let's see ... who's more likely to be correct on NFL schemes.... texaspackerbacker.... or you know real NFL coaches.

Well that are the fact that the Super Bowl Champion Seahawks sometimes played two gap just like every other team has... the only question is how much of the do.

And hell yes, Matthews DID get double teamed because the line had no capability to take the pressure off him.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



You're assuming the DL having better pressure would take a double team off of Matthews... and that assumed is probably wrong as teams still chip block the best pass rusher even with better pass rushing. Better pass rushing doesn't stop chip blocking... heck teams chip block more often when the defense is getting better pass rushing.


My point, I say again, is that if our D-Line is mobile and capable of pass rushing - Daniels, Worthy, and D. Jones getting the bulk of the snaps, teams won't dare to scheme against Matthews

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



I get what you're trying to say, but teams don't stop scheming to stop the best pass rusher... and as long as Matthews is the best pass rusher teams will scheme to stop him.

And DL isn't all about pass rushing... you only seemed to be focused on pass rush nothing else...


Heck when Capers did ran the aggressive 3-4 scheme, fans complained he was using the aggressive 2-4 an other packages too much... now that he's not fans are complaining he's not running them enough... grass is always greener on the other side I guess...
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