Porforis
11 years ago

Come on now you know what I was saying. I'm obviously talking about players with the same ability level not the same build. Don't be dense.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



In which case your defense would be exactly like Hawk: A little above okay but from game to game, roughly the same level of okay. We've certainly had years with much-less-than-okay defense in green bay in the last decade plus.
steveishere
11 years ago

In which case your defense would be exactly like Hawk: A little above okay but from game to game, roughly the same level of okay. We've certainly had years with much-less-than-okay defense in green bay in the last decade plus.

Originally Posted by: Porforis 



average at best at every position does not = an overall average defense. That is a bad defense.
nerdmann
11 years ago
The problem with Hawk is he won't juice.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Yerko
11 years ago
I've liked Hawk and I have enjoyed watching him play as a Packer. He isn't flashy and very few times will he make that play that shoots your ass of your couch, but he is a solid player nonetheless. He makes few mistakes, is a leader of the defense and is a sound veteran who doesn't get injured (<- this is odd playing for the Packers).

He has been cut just so he can come back to take a pay cut. I respect the crap out of that because I am sure he can make a little more money playing elsewhere (some may disagree), but he wants to be a part of this Packers team.

RotoWorld says:

The immediate pay cut is $1.85 million in 2013, and Hawk's 2014-2015 salaries were slashed by $2.45 million and $2.85 million, respectively. In exchange, the Packers guaranteed $2.21 million of Hawk's new 2013 base salary ($3.6 million). Hawk, 29, graded out as Pro Football Focus' No. 20 inside linebacker in 2012. He was adequate against the run but a liability versus the pass.



I don't care for the article and saying that, I didn't even read it all. The title alone blows chunks because I don't see how you can say someone is struggling when they are constantly leading the team (or close to the top) in tackles each year. That's a big part of his job, no?

It could be worse.
buckeyepackfan
11 years ago

I say it's completely fair to compare Hawk to what we coulda and shoulda got with the 5th pick in the draft - NOT to what some low round pick did or could do, many of which have actually out-performed Hawk anyway. I'm on record as favoring Vernon Davis instead of Hawk - the big controversy at the time he was drafted, and even though Davis has been kind of up and down, I'd still take his career over Hawk. Furthermore, if we hadn't gotten Hawk, there's a strong chance we would have somebody a LOT better in that position now.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



The grass is always greener!!!

All these supertstars you said we could have brought in, how many have played every game but 2 in the last 8 years?

How many have switched positions multiple times because the team needed them to?

How many of these "superstars" are knowlegable enough to switch positions?

How many of these "superstars" you wanted would have stayed in Green Bay, when Ted Thompson would not have offered the "Big money" contract that they thought they deserved?

How many of these "superstars" would have allowed Ted Thompson to cut them one day then resign them the next day to help THE TEAM with the salary cap?

How many of these "superstars" would have taken a pay cut, and not whined and cried about it all the way to the bank?

Hell Bishop refused a pay cut and look what happened to him.

Ted Thompson has had at least 2 chances to cut AJ Hawk without hurting The Packers as a whole, salary cap wise, both times he decided the BEST MAN for the job was AJ Hawk.

Not to hurt your feelings, but I'll take Ted Thompsons decision making over yours everyday.

YEP THE GRASS IS ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE!!!!

1. Barnett, Nick LB Oregon State 2003-10 107
2. Barrington, Sam LB South Florida 2013 1
3. Bishop, Desmond LB California 2007-11 69
4. Briggs, Diyral LB Bowling Green 2010 5
5. Chillar, Brandon LB UCLA 2008-10 34
6. Diggs, Na'il LB Ohio State 2000-05 84
7. Francois, Robert LB Boston College 2010-13 35
8. Havner, Spencer TE/LB UCLA 2008-10 21
9. Hawk, A.J. LB Ohio State 2006-12 110
10. Hodge, Abdul LB Iowa 2006 8
11. Jones, Brad LB Colorado 2009-13 51
12. Kampman, Aaron DE/LB Iowa 2002-09 112
13. Lansanah, Danny LB Connecticut 2008 5
14. Lattimore, Jamari LB Middle Tennessee State 2011-13 23
15. Leake, John LB Clemson 2005 3
16. Lenon, Paris LB Richmond 2002-05 64
17. Manning, Roy LB Michigan 2005 15
18. Manning, Terrell LB North Carolina State 2012 5
19. Matthews, Clay LB Southern California 2009-13 58
20. Moses, Dezman LB Tulane 2012 16
21. Mulumba, Andy LB Eastern Michigan 2013 1
22. Obiozor, Cyril LB Texas A&M 2009 5
23. Palmer, Nate LB Illinois State 2013 1
24. Perry, Nick LB Southern California 2012-13 6
25. Poppinga, Brady LB Brigham Young 2005-10 81
26. Simpkins, Maurice LB Coastal Carolina 2010 2
27. Smith, D.J. LB Appalachian State 2011-12 22
28. So'oto, Vic LB Brigham Young 2011-12 8
29. Taylor, Ben LB Virginia Tech 2006 10
30. Thomas, Robert LB UCLA 2005 10
31. Thompson, Jeremy DE/LB Wake Forest 2008-09 15
32. Walden, Erik LB Middle Tennessee State 2010-12 40
33. White, Tracy LB Howard 2006-08 32
34. Wilhelm, Matt LB Ohio State 2010 7
35. Williams, D.J. LB Arkansas 2011-12 26
36. Zombo, Frank LB Central Michigan 2010-12 25
I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!
GermanGilbert
11 years ago

I say it's completely fair to compare Hawk to what we coulda and shoulda got with the 5th pick in the draft - NOT to what some low round pick did or could do, many of which have actually out-performed Hawk anyway.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



This is the list of the picks in the 2006 Draft from #5 AJ Hawk to the next Packers pick at #46 Daryn Colledge. And now please tell me which of the guys would have been a better pick.

6. San Francisco - Vernon Davis, TE Maryland
7. Oakland - Michael Huff, DB Texas
8. Buffalo - Donte Whitner, S Ohio State
9. Detroit - Ernie Sims, LB Florida State
10. Arizona - Matt Leinart, QB USC
11. Denver (from St. Louis) - Jay Cutler, QB Vanderbilt
12. Baltimore (from Cleveland) - Haloti Ngata, DT Oregon
13. Cleveland (from Baltimore) - Kamerion Wimbley, DE/OLB Florida State
14. Philadelphia - Broderick Bunkley, DT Florida State
15. St. Louis (from Atlanta through Denver) - Tye Hill, Cb Clemson
16. Miami - Jason Allen, DB Tennessee
17. Minnesota - Chad Greenway, LB Iowa
18. Dallas - Bobby Carpenter, LB Ohio State
19. San Diego - Antonio Cromartie, CB Florida State
20. Kansas City - Tamba Hali, DE Penn State
21. New England - Laurence Maroney, RB Minnesota
22. San Francisco (from Washington through Denver) - Manny Lawson, DE/OLB North Carolina State
23. Tampa Bay - Davin Joseph, G Oklahoma
24. Cincinnati - Johnathan Joseph, CB South Carolina
25. Pittsburgh (from N.Y. Giants) - Santonio Holmes, WR Ohio State
26. Buffalo (from Chicago) - John McCargo, DT North Carolina State
27. Carolina - DeAngelo Williams, RB Memphis
28. Jacksonville - Marcedes Lewis, TE UCLA
29. NY Jets (from Denver through Atlanta) - Nick Mangold, C Ohio State
30. Indianapolis - Joseph Addai, RB LSU
31. Seattle - Kelly Jennings, CB Miami (FL)
32. N.Y. Giants (from Pittsburgh) - Mathias Kiwanuka, DE Boston College

Round Two
1. (33) Houston - DeMeco Ryans, LB Alabama
2. (34) Cleveland (from New Orleans) - D'Qwell Jackson, LB Maryland
3. (35) Washington (from New York Jets) - Rocky McIntosh, LB Miami (FL)
4. (36) New England (from Green Bay) - Chad Jackson, WR Florida
5. (37) Atlanta (from San Francisco through Denver through Green Bay) - Jimmy Williams, CB Virginia Tech
6. (38) Oakland - Thomas Howard, OLB UTEP
7. (39) Philadelphia (from Tennessee) - Winston Justice, OT USC
8. (40) Detroit - Daniel Bullocks, S Nebraska
9. (41) Arizona - Deuce Lutui, OG USC
10. (42) Chicago (from Buffalo) - Danieal Manning, DB Abilene Christian
11. (43) New Orleans (from Cleveland) - Roman Harper, S Alabama
12. (44) N.Y. Giants (from Baltimore) - Sinorice Moss, WR Miami (FL)
13. (45) Tennessee (from Philadelphia) - LenDale White, RB USC




IMO I'd take D'Quell Jackson over Hawk. But that's the only one. There are few players which I consider the same level, but most of these guys were outperformed by Hawk in any meaning.

For me Hawk is rock solid, he's the leading tackler this season and stayed here for 8 years. I'm happy to have him.
blank
nerdmann
11 years ago
Vernon Davis.

Haloti Ngata.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
GermanGilbert
11 years ago

Vernon Davis.

Haloti Ngata.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann 



Vernon Davis: 1 very good, 2 mediocre to good season, 8 in total. 😳
Haloti Ngata: Good, but averall not significant better than Hawk, at least IMO.

I'd take some of the other guys I considered the same level like Hawk over those two anytime.
blank
buckeyepackfan
11 years ago

Vernon Davis.

Haloti Ngata.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann 



2005 Ted signs Ryan Pickett...Pickett of Ngata?

No question in my mind.

TE's on Packer roster 2006 Bubba Franks and Donald Lee 2 proven vets, David Martin was an early version of Jermicheal Finley, the size of a TE with the speed of a WR, his only problem, he couldn't stay healthy, no room for Vernon Davis.




I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!
DoddPower
11 years ago
6. San Francisco - Vernon Davis, TE Maryland
8. Buffalo - Donte Whitner, S Ohio State
12. Baltimore (from Cleveland) - Haloti Ngata, DT Oregon ***
17. Minnesota - Chad Greenway, LB Iowa
19. San Diego - Antonio Cromartie, CB Florida State
20. Kansas City - Tamba Hali, DE Penn State
22. San Francisco (from Washington through Denver) - Manny Lawson, DE/OLB North Carolina State

29. NY Jets (from Denver through Atlanta) - Nick Mangold, C Ohio State


Round Two

7. (39) Philadelphia (from Tennessee) - Winston Justice, OT USC


I would say all of the above guys would have been worth considering and possibly better picks than Hawk. That is complete hindsight, but what else can one do at this point? There could have been some nice value there, even if a trade down was involved and scooped up a few more picks. Ngata is not even a question. He's basically a truly elite player that an elite defense can build around. If you don't think Ngata is a great player, I don't think you are watching him enough, at least when reasonably healthy. I actually like Manny Lawson a lot. 6'5 LBer, fast. I can't really say Hawk is MUCH better than him. Nick Mangold would have been a rock for the Packers and would still be for a notorious weak offensive line. Many of us can imagine what an improved offensive line could do for this team. Hali is a great pass rusher who likely impacts the games more than Hawk. Cromartie has become a borderline shutdown corner despite kind of being a head case. He's fast as hell and is a great player to have on your team. Greenway is every bit as solid as Hawk, and very likely better. Justice may be a stretch and I'd rather have Hawk, but still worth some consideration.

Either way, in hindsight, there was potential to get some great value, potentially a substantially better player, and a similar player in many scenarios and potentially extra picks. It's interesting to think about. Ultimately, I'm OK with Hawk, but I think the Packers defense would have been and would still be totally different with somone like Ngata. The best thing Hawk has going for him is his availability, which is a great asset. He can be counted on to give what he offers, even if what he offers isn't elite. That's worth a lot. But from a production standpoint, similar production can generally be gotten from Brad Jones and Desmond Bishops of the world, which puts things in perspective a bit.

But still, I certainly don't mind to have Hawk on my favorite team!
Fan Shout
wpr (9h) : 7 days
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : sounds like Packers don't get good compensation, Jaire staying
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Nobody coming up with a keep, but at x amount
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Trade, cut or keep
dfosterf (16-Apr) : that from Jaire
dfosterf (16-Apr) : My guess is the Packers floated the concept of a reworked contract via his agent and agent got a f'
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Yes, and that is why I think Rob worded it how he did. Rather than say "agent"
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Same laws apply. Agent must present such an offer to Jaire. Cannot accept or reject without presenting it
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : I'm thinking that is why Rob worded it how he did.
dfosterf (16-Apr) : The Packers can certainly still make the offer to the agent
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Laws of agency and definition of fiduciary responsibility
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Jaire is open to a reduced contract without Jaire's permission
dfosterf (16-Apr) : The agent would arguably violate the law if he were to tell the Packers
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : That someone ... likely the agent.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : So, Jaire has not been offered nor rejected a pay reduction, but someone says he'd decline.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovksy says t was direct communication with someone familiar with Jaire’s line of thinking at that moment.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovsky just replied to me a bit ago. Jaire hasn't said it.
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Of course, that depends on the definition of "we"
dfosterf (16-Apr) : We have been told that they haven't because he wouldn't accept it. I submit we don't know that
dfosterf (16-Apr) : What is the downside in making a calculated reduced offer to Jaire?
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers are receiving interest in Jaire Alexander but a trade is not imminent
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Jalen Ramsey wants to be traded. He's never happy is he?
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : two 1sts in 2022 and two 2nd's in 2023 and 2024
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers had fortunate last three drafts.
dfosterf (15-Apr) : I may have to move
dfosterf (15-Apr) : My wife just told the ancient Japanese sushi dude not enough rice under his fish
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I think a dozen is what I need
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Go fund me for this purpose just might work. A dozen nurses show up at 1265 to provide mental health assistance.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Maybe send a crew of Angels to the Packers draft room on draft day.
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I am the Angel that gets visited.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Visiting Angels has a pretty good reputation
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : what
Martha Careful (14-Apr) : WINNING IT, not someone else losing it. The best victory though was re-uniting with his wife
Martha Careful (14-Apr) : The manner in which he won it was just amazing and wonderful. First blowing the lead then getting back, then blowing it. But ultimately
Zero2Cool (12-Apr) : I'm guessing since the thumb was broken, he wasn't feeling it.
dfosterf (10-Apr) : Looking for guidance. Not feeling the thumb.
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : If they knew about it or not
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : I don't recall that he did which is why I asked.
Zero2Cool (10-Apr) : Guessing they probably knew. Did he have cast or something on?
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : Did they know that at the time or was that something the realized afterwards?
Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Van Ness played most of season with broken thumb
wpr (9-Apr) : yay
Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Mark Murphy says Steelers likely to protect Packers game. Meaning, no Ireland
Zero2Cool (8-Apr) : Struggling to figure out what text editor options are needed and which are 'nice to have'
Mucky Tundra (8-Apr) : *CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP*
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : WR who said he'd break Xavier Worthy 40 time...and ran slower than you
Mucky Tundra (2-Apr) : Who?
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Texas’ WR Isaiah Bond is scheduled to visit the Bills, Browns, Chiefs, Falcons, Packers and Titans starting next week.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Spotting ball isn't changing, only measuring distance is, Which wasn't the issue.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : The spotting of the ball IS the issue. Not the chain gang.
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