This may have to be moved, lol, but, what is the Patriot Act mean to you? I've heard that the phrase "Patriot Act" is quite misleading to it's actual intentions and implementation.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

Good topi
I'm too worn out from dealing with this back to type much more than some random thoughts.

1. It illustrates how legislation built from fear is almost always a bad idea.

2. It illustrates that the American Experiment that Tocqueville was so impressed with may well be over.

3. The only significant difference between having a Department of Homeland Security and having a Committee on Public Safety is that the former hasn't the power of the guillotine.

4. Yet.

5. The parallels between America of 2011-2013 are eerily similar to France of 1789 and 1848.

6. The TSA has not made air travel safer.

7. Technically I'm a loony anarchist, not a loony libertarian.

8. Interesting that the Patriot Act didn't prevent the Boston massacre, isn't it.

9. At least most people know where Guatanamo Bay is now. Now all we need to do is get them to understand a bit of the history of the place and the island its a part of.

10. The fact of the Patriot Act's existence, and Americans' willingness to accept it is pretty good evidence of the failure of historical education for the last few generations.

Originally Posted by: Wade 

1. If you lose a big game by oh ....... a running QB for example, you take extraordinary measures to defense that sort of thing, right? Life imitates football.

2. Did I mention ....... expect exaggeration in the counter-argument?

3. see number 2.

4. It did prevent recidivism hahahaha.

5. Forgive my historical ignorance or forgetfulness, but what mass murdering event equivalent to 9/11 led to the French Revolution? And what the hell happened in 1848 - other than Wisconsin becoming a state?

6. How many buildings have airliners slammed into since it began?

7. ooooh, a major distinction hahaha. Anyway, Wade, I'd hardly call you loony. Paranoid, yes. Capable of loony responses cloaked in sophistication, yes, but loony? Never.

8. I liken the Boston thing to a booster shot. The lessons of 9/11 were maybe beginning to wear off - the ignoring of the warning from Russia, etc. Arguably, the Patriot Act did make catching the Muslim bastards quicker and easier, and thus prevent the other bombings they had planned.

9. What I know of the history of Guantanamo is it was that bastion we refused to give up when Cuba went Communist - a flicker of silver lining in a dark cloud of recent history. Did you have some other historical context in mind?

10. Do you have any idea how ELITIST that sounds? "Those dumb boobs who prefer to not get killed just aren't getting our enlightened message about how they should be more concerned about their freedom than their LIFE".

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 

I wanna go fishin' with Wade, Shawn, Jeremy, and Texas.

That would be a good fishing trip.

Originally Posted by: dfosterf 

Of course, with all the shouting, we probably wouldn't catch many fish. (Or could we use grenades as depth charges?)

Originally Posted by: Wade 

Of course, with all the shouting, we probably wouldn't catch many fish. (Or could we use grenades as depth charges?)

Originally Posted by: Wade 

1. I think looking at trade in terms of winners and losers (a la sports games) is a bad idea. But given that you are a mercantilist, I'm not surprised at this.

5. I wasn't speaking of specific event parallels. I was speaking of the "patterns of history", i.e., the fact that,like peasants and other "non-aristocrats" c. 1789 (storming of Bastille, bread riots, CPS originally, etc etc), people in America today tend to look at the state as the solution to problems rather than a necessary evil to be limited a la the American founders. And that is what led to the CPS -- Robispierre didn't just "take power" -- he had a real "popular mandate." His illustration of Acton's dictum ("power corrupts...") came later.
1848 was a year of revolution and potential revolution throughout Europe (France, Hungary, German States, Denmark, Austrian Habsburgs, Switzerland, Italy, Galicia/Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Belgium. Even England had to deal with pretty severe Chartist unrest). It was also the year that The Communist Manifesto was first published (Marx definitely had great timing). You think there is "instability" today. Look at 1848. Now *that* was a scary time.
And it spread two of the worst ideas in modern (if not human) history, nationalism and socialism/communistm.
I'd rather live today, fear of NBCs notwithstanding. Easy.

10. You misunderstood me here, I think. I was indicting educators and the education system, not those who didn't listen to their teachers.

Originally Posted by: Wade