Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
16 years ago
I don't see what other see in him as being worthy of taking the reins of this defense.

From what I see, I don't see talent developing under his watch here in Green Bay, it is arguable that AJ has actually regressed under his watch.

We have had several players flash talent early coming in, but have failed to growing into quality smart players. Coaches can't over come talent downfalls.. but quality coaches can teach players to become smart mentally sound football players.. can get them to elevate their games.

I don't see it with this group, and I think back to the Saints group he ran.. not anyone jumps off the pages as developing into an exceptional player there either..

In three seasons.. we still don't have a backer able to cover a TE effectively.. maybe Chillar.. but he was imported this season.

Winston was a smart classy football player.. but that doesn't always equate to being a quality football coach.

So maybe I am missing something on the guy and the job he has done here.. so I would like to hear from you.. why Moss?

Porky.. I especially am looking forward to your take on this..


http://www.packers.com/team/coaches/moss_winston/ 

Winston Moss
Assistant Head Coach/Linebackers

Entering his 20th season in the National Football League and third with the Packers, Winston Moss begins his second year in the role of assistant head coach/defense in 2008.

Named to the current post by Head Coach Mike McCarthy on Jan. 15, 2007, Moss continues to coach the linebackers as well, his original position upon joining the Packers in 2006.

In his role, the 42-year-old Moss is McCarthy's assistant in regards to concepts critical to winning. A natural leader, Moss uses the same philosophies he learned during an 11-year career as an NFL linebacker. His leadership skills impressed McCarthy when the two worked together for five seasons in New Orleans and again in 2006 in Green Bay.

Last season, Moss helped veteran Nick Barnett continue his progression from steady performer to true team leader with a Pro Bowl-caliber year. Barnett was named second-team All-Pro after leading the Packers in tackles for the fourth time in five seasons and posting a career-high 3 1/2 sacks along with two interceptions and numerous big plays late in games.

Moss continues to develop the talented A.J. Hawk, who earned All-Rookie honors in 2006 and led the team with 155 tackles. In addition, he oversees the maturation of Brady Poppinga through his conversion from a college defensive end into a solid linebacker.

This year, free-agent signee Brandon Chillar and the mix of Tracy White, Desmond Bishop and Abdul Hodge give Moss the most depth he's had to work with at the position.

Moss spent six seasons total with the Saints, where he also coached linebackers. There he worked closely with longtime NFL assistant Rick Venturi and former head coach and current defensive coordinator of the St. Louis Rams, Jim Haslett.

Originally hired by the Saints in 2000 as defensive assistant/quality control, he was promoted to linebackers coach near the end of that season to replace John Bunting, who departed to become head coach at the University of North Carolina.

Moss began his coaching career in 1998 as a defensive quality control assistant for the Seattle Seahawks, the club where he played his final NFL season.

A veteran of 155 NFL games (146 starts), the former linebacker played for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (1987-90) and the Los Angeles Raiders (1991-94), in addition to the Seahawks (1995-97). Over the course of his career, Moss recorded 768 tackles, 20.5 sacks and six interceptions, and recovered one fumble for a TD.

In 1993, when he led the Raiders in tackles on a team that advanced to the AFC Divisional playoffs, he earned the Ed Block Courage Award after a vote of his teammates. Moss also was a three-time defensive captain and received the 1996 NFL Players' Association Unsung Hero Award while with the Seahawks.

A four-time letterman at the University of Miami (Fla.), he and current Packers scout Alonzo Highsmith helped the Hurricanes to the national championship after the 1983 season under Howard Schnellenberger.

As a prep, Moss attended Miami (Fla.) Southridge High School and was an all-state linebacker.

Born in Miami, Fla., Winston and his wife, Zoila, have three sons, Winston Jr., 14, Robert, 9, and Marcus, 6, and two daughters, Victoria, 13, and infant Isabella. In his spare time, Moss enjoys spending time with his family and playing golf.

MOSS AT A GLANCE

* Joined Packers Jan. 19, 2006, as linebackers coach and was named assistant head coach/linebackers on Jan. 15, 2007.
* A standout NFL linebacker for 11 years, played 155 games (146 starts) with three clubs: the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (1987-90), Los Angeles Raiders (1991-94) and Seattle Seahawks (1995-97).
* Selected by Tampa Bay as the second of two second-round picks in the 1987 draft, shortly after the Bucs took college teammate Vinny Testaverde No. 1 overall.
* Played with Lionel Washington, now Packers defensive nickel/cornerbacks coach, for four seasons with the Raiders.
* Lettered four years at the University of Miami (Fla.).

COACHING BACKGROUND:

Year College/Pro Team Position Coached
1998 Seattle Seahawks Defensive Quality Control
2000 New Orleans Saints Def. Assistant/Quality Control
2000-05 New Orleans Saints Linebackers
2006 Green Bay Packers Linebackers
2007-08 Green Bay Packers Asst. Head Coach/Linebackers


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
millertime
16 years ago
its hard to give anyone on our defensive staff any props this season.

one name comes to mind....

KURT SCHOTTENHEIMER!

the man we have all hated for such a long time has finally come through. kind of ironic.
Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
16 years ago
Still not a big Schottenheimer fan.. but agreed.

Want another name..

Washington.. easily.. look at the progress of Williams and Blackmon to a point.. it is hard to develop full press corners in this league.. Williams is quickly becoming a quality one.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
porky88
16 years ago
I more so attribute the struggles of A.J. Hawk to being injured and out of position this year. I really believe once moved back to his natural positions he's going to be a big time player. Much like Nick Collins developed in his fourth season, I expect Hawk to do so as well once utilized properly. Of course it all depends on what's around him too.

The linebackers are a talented group of players suffering because of the defensive lineman in front of them. Chances are if your tackles are getting lit up like Green Bay's are, your linebackers aren't going to fare much better because teams are able to put a guard or a tackle on a backer. That's not how a defensive scheme is meant to be. You don't want the tackles running free to get a hand on your backers. I've seen that more this year.

Last year, Nick Barnett had a Pro Bowl year and by far his best season of his career under the watch of Winston Moss. The biggest difference from last year to this year is the play of the Packers defensive line which I attribute to the lackluster coaching of Bob Sanders. Ray Lewis thrives because of the play of Haloti Ngata. Brian Urlacher does because of the play of Tommie Harris. Jon Beason a similar player to Barnett is thriving in Carolina because Carolina's tackles are doing an above average job. Yet, Green Bay's tackles have been below average. They're not even average.

Some people believe in gutting the linebackers as well and finding a new MLB and SLB. I'm not one of them. I think it's the defensive line and I think if you fix that, the defense as a whole is better.

The only way to fix that is bring in good players. I like Colin Cole, but I believe Green Bay needs an impact tackle. Whether it be Albert Haynesworth or Tyson Jackson via the NFL draft. You force teams team have to put a man or two on your tackle and you'll open things up for the linebackers to make plays. That's what those two guys are capable of. Pickett and Jolly aren't and they're soft or have played soft this year.

I also believe the Packers need an aggressive defensive coordinator. Winston Moss, I believe would be that. Not just because of his playing days, but also the way the Packers linebackers play. They're anything but a laid back bunch. I actually think they're a little to aggressive at times, but I rather have a team that is to aggressive than a team that is to laid back. Bob Sanders has made the Packers into a laid back team with lack of creativity. Moss whom I believe will be an NFL Head Coach one day just is the opposite of that.

Though if they really want to shake things up. Mike Singletary was on the 49ers staff with Mike McCarthy once upon a time. If the 49ers don't hang onto Singletary as the Head Coach, perhaps Mike McCarthy will look into bringing him into the fold. An old Bear coaching the Packers. That would be interesting.

EDIT: I also like Lionel Washington too.
tano1998
16 years ago
BRING A PROVEN DC....LIKE CRENNEL OR ANYONE CAPABLE OF TURN THIS AWFUL DEFENSE IN SOMETHING RESPECTABLE....
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Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
16 years ago
Porky.. I will buy a little into the Dline compounding the Backers problems..

So you are going to credit Barnett's year last year to Moss.. Barnett finally got noticed because yes the Tackles kept him clean, so more of his tackles were near the LOS than downfield.. but Barnett still plays the same way as before Moss arrived.. unable to get off a block, over pursues and tackles high.. but that is splitting hairs..

Hawk.. I am not buying that he is developing currently.. I watched that group primarily yesterday.. the linebackers sat back and didn't attack.. until all they could do was turn and run the play down.. Hawk was by far the slowest to react to the play..

Poppinga is marginal at best.. hasn't taken advantage of his skills yet.. hence.. the misread on the Leach play late as an example.. he read run and released Leach out to an open zone.. it wasn't even that good of a play fake.. mental error.

Bishop and Hodge.. I give a pass on Hodge and injuries.. but both of these kids flashed natural talent from the get go.. neither has made strides in their game.

White.. White is a special teamer.. nothing more.

My point is this.. we have talent at the position no doubt, but watching these guys that are in their third year of this season.. there is coaching issues within this group.. they have more talent than this... at least they flash it.

I don't see the progression of that group.. granted the line hasn't helped them this year, but they make far to many errors in coverage and poor techniques in tackling for me to give a thumbs up to Moss as a position coach.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
ILikeThePackers39
16 years ago

I more so attribute the struggles of A.J. Hawk to being injured and out of position this year. I really believe once moved back to his natural positions he's going to be a big time player. Much like Nick Collins developed in his fourth season, I expect Hawk to do so as well once utilized properly. Of course it all depends on what's around him too.

The linebackers are a talented group of players suffering because of the defensive lineman in front of them. Chances are if your tackles are getting lit up like Green Bay's are, your linebackers aren't going to fare much better because teams are able to put a guard or a tackle on a backer. That's not how a defensive scheme is meant to be. You don't want the tackles running free to get a hand on your backers. I've seen that more this year.

Last year, Nick Barnett had a Pro Bowl year and by far his best season of his career under the watch of Winston Moss. The biggest difference from last year to this year is the play of the Packers defensive line which I attribute to the lackluster coaching of Bob Sanders. Ray Lewis thrives because of the play of Haloti Ngata. Brian Urlacher does because of the play of Tommie Harris. Jon Beason a similar player to Barnett is thriving in Carolina because Carolina's tackles are doing an above average job. Yet, Green Bay's tackles have been below average. They're not even average.

Some people believe in gutting the linebackers as well and finding a new MLB and SLB. I'm not one of them. I think it's the defensive line and I think if you fix that, the defense as a whole is better.

The only way to fix that is bring in good players. I like Colin Cole, but I believe Green Bay needs an impact tackle. Whether it be Albert Haynesworth or Tyson Jackson via the NFL draft. You force teams team have to put a man or two on your tackle and you'll open things up for the linebackers to make plays. That's what those two guys are capable of. Pickett and Jolly aren't and they're soft or have played soft this year.

I also believe the Packers need an aggressive defensive coordinator. Winston Moss, I believe would be that. Not just because of his playing days, but also the way the Packers linebackers play. They're anything but a laid back bunch. I actually think they're a little to aggressive at times, but I rather have a team that is to aggressive than a team that is to laid back. Bob Sanders has made the Packers into a laid back team with lack of creativity. Moss whom I believe will be an NFL Head Coach one day just is the opposite of that.

Though if they really want to shake things up. Mike Singletary was on the 49ers staff with Mike McCarthy once upon a time. If the 49ers don't hang onto Singletary as the Head Coach, perhaps Mike McCarthy will look into bringing him into the fold. An old Bear coaching the Packers. That would be interesting.

EDIT: I also like Lionel Washington too.

"porky88" wrote:




+1 to you, sir. I would personally prefer to really shake things up (Singletary if San Fran doesn't keep him, Marvin Lewis if he gets the axe in Cinci? Yes, I just may be crazy), but Moss certainly has the right attitude, and I can't agree more with your assessment as far as Sanders goes. Even when they were looking good last year, the lack of aggressiveness held them back.

I guess my main concern is whether or not Moss has an overall defensive scheme or is able of concocting/implementing one. I'm not at all saying he doesn't; I just don't know that he does or what it is.

I also wholeheartedly agree with you in terms of the personnel -- the real problem area is D-line. We could definitely use one proven stud (I'd take either Haynesworth or Peppers if either scenario were possible) and a youngster with real ability there. The linebackers are fine if they aren't asked to be superhuman on every down. With the addition of Chillar, we've got the guy to make up for Popp's deficiencies in the passing game. Our secondary, once healthy, is looking to be in good shape, with Williams, Lee and Blackmon learning behind Woody and Al and 3 guys I'm quite happy with @ safety. Add some real quality on the D line and we're loaded on D, as long as we've got someone to put all that talent to good use.

We need a whole new identity on D, and I think it needs to be aggressive and nasty. If Moss can make that happen, awesome -- if not, I think it's in Ted's and Mike's best interest to go out and get the guy who can do it, and then get the hell out of his way. As others have said, I think they're going to have to turn this around next year -- fair or not, the Favre situation never helped them, and even though that's about the last thing a rational person would point to as the cause of this disappointing season, it is in fact a disappointing season and when you combine that with the preceding offseason, they need to right the ship quickly, IMO.
blank
porky88
16 years ago
Tano,

Crennel is a 3-4 coach. Bringing him in would mean a huge overhaul of the defense. I'm not sure that's a direction Thompson and McCarthy can afford to take considering their jobs could be on the line next year.

Pack,

Last year Nick Barnett was more disciplined. I have several games on tape and I recall watching Barnett and thinking he looked like a different player. He looked as good as Brian Urlacher. This year he did revert back to his old bad habits of tackling high and over pursuing like you state and whether or not that has to do with the coaching of Winston Moss or Barnett trying to do to much because he's trying to pickup the slack around him is pure speculation.

I personally think he's trying to much.

Hawk is going to have to make the progress in his fourth season similar to that of Nick Collins has done in this year. That's why I think he should go on IR and start working towards 2009.

I believe Bishop made his first career start against Houston and I was very impressed. I recall he forced a fumble and he made a huge 3rd and 1 stop. I even think he lead the team in tackles. I liked what I saw. One of the few bright spots.

Regardless of who it should be, I think we can all agree Bob Sanders isn't the right man for the job.
Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
16 years ago


Regardless of who it should be, I think we can all agree Bob Sanders isn't the right man for the job.

"porky88" wrote:



Agreed...

Personally for the remainder of the season.. Bishop should be manning the middle... he plays downhill like a run stopper should..
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
minnypacker
16 years ago
I think we have the players to be a 3-4 team.

Jenkins and Kampy at DE, Pickett and COle at NT.

LB's Poppinga (rush guy), Barnett ILB, Bishop ILB or Hawk, Hawk OLB or Chillar.

if we dump Sanders (please let it happen!) We will have a Philosophical change anyways. I think we have players to make the 3-4 practical.
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