Rockmolder
13 years ago
This couldn't have possibly gone any other way than it turned out, Favre discussions we've had about 900 times before.

Since, apart from the whole Favre debacle, everyone will be making pledges of love to both Hutson and Starr, I'll throw in, from a very-much-biased view, Willie Davis.

Also, the (near) complete absence of either Reggie White and/or Forrest Gregg is a shame.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

This couldn't have possibly gone any other way than it turned out, Favre discussions we've had about 900 times before.

Since, apart from the whole Favre debacle, everyone will be making pledges of love to both Hutson and Starr, I'll throw in, from a very-much-biased view, Willie Davis.

Also, the (near) complete absence of either Reggie White and/or Forrest Gregg is a shame.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



Welcome back, Rock! Where you been? Doubtless spending all that time with the girlfriend or other young people things.

Anyway, it's good to see you back.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
13 years ago

Welcome back, Rock! Where you been? Doubtless spending all that time with the girlfriend or other young people things.

Anyway, it's good to see you back.

Originally Posted by: Wade 





Euro Cup is over.
UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
13 years ago

This couldn't have possibly gone any other way than it turned out, Favre discussions we've had about 900 times before.

Since, apart from the whole Favre debacle, everyone will be making pledges of love to both Hutson and Starr, I'll throw in, from a very-much-biased view, Willie Davis.

Also, the (near) complete absence of either Reggie White and/or Forrest Gregg is a shame.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



There is a difference between being a HOF player and the best ever. Reggie gets some love. Forrest won't compare to Hutson or Starr or Favre in that category.

Even if he did it is almost impossible to say, in general, an OL player was the greatest player on the team.
UserPostedImage
Dexter_Sinister
13 years ago

Way to go Dex I want to see if I can play your game

93 and 95 teams got beat by a dynasty in the Cowboys you know the ones that won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. (Granted. Still doesn't change the fact Favre choked or played poorly in critical games.)

98 playoff game against San Fran let's see you forgot the no fumble called against Rice and the defense giving up a last second TD to Owens. (Granted. Still doesn't change the fact Favre played poorly in a critical game)

01 I will give you but what did we have for weapons that year oh ya we had Billy Schroeder and Freeman going against the greatest show on turf. (BS. The margin of victory was the 28 Favre scored for St Louis. I would imagine that 6 more completions to the right team would have been enough to win a tie game.)

02 Vick killed us with his running and the blocked punt was all on Favre. (Granted. Favre still played poorly in a critical game.)

03 That team was over achievers that won on emotion and you even said it 4th and 26th and needing 1 more yard with 200 yards rushing. Before halftime we are kept out of the endzone on a 4th and 1 at the 1. And ofcourse the choke job by the defense on 4-26th. But yes your right it was Favre that choked. (Just because the D choked too, it doesn't mean that Favre didn't. It also doesn't change the fact that Favre played poorly in a critical game.)

04 Minnesota quarterback Daunte Culpepper killed the Packers in every way possible, finishing with a superb 137.1 passer rating and throwing four touchdown passes and no interceptions. He pounced on the Packers’ mishaps and coverage breakdowns that have plagued Slowik’s defense all season. (Granted, Still doesn't change the fact that Favre played poorly in a critical game.)

yes that was Favre's fault seeing he lost his only threat in Walker in the 3rd quarter.



07 Giants game, ya we couldn't run the ball and going against an awesome defense that shut down the record breaking Pats in the Super Bowl. You forget the Giants missed 2 fgs and we had that awesome running game which had 28 yards for the game. (Granted. Still doesn't address my point. The point that Favre choked in a critical game.)





See your hatred for Favre makes you blind to other parts of the game, Yes Favre was at fault in those losses as was everyone on that team.

But yet your saying Rodgers didn't do anything wrong in his 2 playoff losses isn't really fair. The 2 playoff losses were really on the defense but Rodgers and the offense had parts in it.


Now lets get back on topic

Originally Posted by: dhazer 



I didn't say, nor ever would say that the games were won or lost by one guy on an entire team. Starting from the GM down to the water boys, there are too many people involved for a mistake or a bad game to be the responsibility of one guy.

HOWEVER. Teams win and teams lose, QBs make plays or don't make plays. When it was step up or go home, Favre failed to step up, choked or played poorly when Starr would have played his best game. That is the difference. It isn't the loss, it the failure to be clutch.

I give Favre credit for making fantastic come from behind plays. About 30% of his opportunities. I give him credit for having great seasons about 33% of his career. I don't excuse, deny or ignore the third of his career when he was average at best. I also refuse to ignore deny or excuse the third when he sucked. That isn't hate, that is just a lack of being sucked into the Favre hype.

The difference between Rodgers and Favre is when it came to the playoffs, Rodgers stepped up and played great. In fact, Rodgers has the highest post season rating ever.

Trying to say Rodgers is at fault for the playoff losses to make Favre look less bad is flat out wrong. 7 drops are not Rodgers fault.

AGAIN, I don't blame Favre for the losses, I blame him for choking, playing poorly, or throwing critical INTs in the playoffs when he should have stepped up. How can you compare him to Starr who had his best games when it was most important?

I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
PackerTraxx
13 years ago
Don Hutson, not even close.
Why is Jerry Kramer not in the Hall of Fame?
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
Let us not forget that Starr also called all the plays. Other than Peyton Manning (I can't believe I mentioned him in this thread...argh!!!), no current era quarterback has had that responsibility, much less done so well with it.

Favre had physical skills that Starr never had. He could do things to complete passes, to keep games going, that Starr never could have done. Starr didn't have Favre's 40 speed or his elusiveness. He knew how to evade contact and was physically adept enough to avoid a lot of bad hits that would have, and did, put Starr out. Starr not only didn't have Favre's passing stats, he could never have had them because he wouldn't have been able to stay as healthy as often.

I do believe, however, that Starr, would have excelled in any era including today's.

It's no accident that the only player in recent NFL history who can be talked about in the same breath (sort of) as Starr with respect to championships, is Joe Montana. My guess is that Montana, were he transplanted back to the Lombardi era, would probably have done pretty well. (I do *not* think Favre or Manning or Brees or Brady would have.) But I do think Starr would have excelled under Walsh and Seifert.

Was Starr aided by all the Hall of Famers on his team? Sure. But anyone who thinks he couldn't have one more than one title under Wolf/Holmgren I think is mistaken. The only thing that would have stopped him from doing so would have been injuries.

He would never have been as durable as Favre. But would he have been durable enough? I think so. He survived the Deacon Joneses and the Carl Ellers and the Alan Pages and the Dick Butkuses and a whole lot of others who were just as tough, just as hardhitting as anyone today.

Again, IMO, Hutson is #1. Starr is #2.

Everyone else is vying for #3.

Until someone else "redefines the game" or approaches Montana/Starr numbers, it'll be a distant third.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Rockmolder
13 years ago

There is a difference between being a HOF player and the best ever. Reggie gets some love. Forrest won't compare to Hutson or Starr or Favre in that category.

Even if he did it is almost impossible to say, in general, an OL player was the greatest player on the team.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



That's very much true... But that's the problem. He might've been the best player on his team, but his position, coupled with the era he played in, makes it very hard to back such a statement up with facts, stats etc.

One of the biggest things he has going for him, in my mind, is that even Zeke Bratkowski looked like a HoFer quite a few times. Whichever running backs played behing that line, they where instantly propelled into stardom.

Of course, I'm not taking anything away from guys like Starr, Hornung, since they where pretty good themselves, but a guy like Tom Moore got it done behind that line before going on to put up averages above 3.0 ypc. Likewise for Earl Gros.

As for name an O-lineman the best player being impossible... It is very hard to back up your claims, I'll give you that. Moreso than most positions, you just can't make a solid claim outside of seeing the level of play. Sacks given up is one of the few you can really go by of the "official" stats.

I'll make the claim that Walter Jones was, for many years, by far the best player for the Seahawks. Even with Shaun Alexander running the ball. Same goes for Jonathan Ogden on Baltimore's offensive side. Maybe even the whole team, but that would be blasphemous to say with Lewis leading that defense.
Rockmolder
13 years ago

Welcome back, Rock! Where you been? Doubtless spending all that time with the girlfriend or other young people things.

Anyway, it's good to see you back.



Originally Posted by: Wade 



Thank you. Obviously, that's where most of my time goes. Just been busy between school and work on the side of that...

Euro Cup is over.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



...til I lost my job, freeing up some time to sproud my crap over PackersHome again.

Euro Cup was well awful, getting knocked out like that... Imagine the Packers going 1-7 next year, getting dropped out, then not being able to play for another 2 years again.
porky88
13 years ago

Let us not forget that Starr also called all the plays. Other than Peyton Manning (I can't believe I mentioned him in this thread...argh!!!), no current era quarterback has had that responsibility, much less done so well with it.

Originally Posted by: Wade 


Calling plays today is not the same as it was in the 60s. The playbook is denser now. I'd argue that a QB today probably knows more audibles (if given the responsibility) than a QB in the 60s did plays.
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