zombieslayer
12 years ago

Indy, Saints and Rams all had weak Ds but great passer rating differentials.

It doesn't matter if it comes from O or D, it matters just how great the difference is.

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



Heh. I actually love these discussions.

Yes, it was either you or Nonstopdrivel (or possibly both) that showed that passer rating differential is actually a better stat than D ranking.


And yes, had we not had all those drops....
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Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

It's true Bishop didn't play as well last season, but he was outstanding in 2010. The below link summarizes his play fairly well. He'll need to rebound next year, but I didn't think his play dipped as much as Hawk's did. Since '10, Bishop's been the better overall player.

Originally Posted by: porky88 



I didn't see where they summarized both Hawk and Bishops performance from last year in any of those links. I think Bishop had a better game against NY in the passing game because they don't attack the LBs with TEs much. They also have a more mediocre QB. Phil Rivers tore Bishop a new one in the Chargers game.

Hawk was also outstanding in 2010. The only time I saw him mentioned was in the NO game last year, nothing for 2010 or for the rest of 2011. They didn't even list his numbers.

But since people don't like AJ, nobody wants to credit him for running a super bowl winning D. Or running a D that help the team go 19-0 for a stretch without surrendering the lead in the 4th quarter.

I don't have a problem with Bishop playing the run. I do have a major problem when the O lines a TE up on his side and he is forced to cover. In which he was much worse than Hawk.

Personally, I think because people have gotten a "bad feeling" about Hawk, they like to undersell him. And over sell Bishop for the same reason. A couple flashy plays and all the sudden he is the most complete LB in the league.

While I may agree that Hawk doesn't look like a top 5 overall pick, that alone doesn't make Bishop better. If Bishop were a top 5 overall pick, he would not be living up to those expectations in the passing game either.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

Heh. I actually love these discussions.

Yes, it was either you or Nonstopdrivel (or possibly both) that showed that passer rating differential is actually a better stat than D ranking.


And yes, had we not had all those drops....

Originally Posted by: zombieslayer 



I agree, this has been one of my favorite threads. Even better than bashing on Favre.[grin1]
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
porky88
12 years ago

I didn't see where they summarized both Hawk and Bishops performance from last year in any of those links. I think Bishop had a better game against NY in the passing game because they don't attack the LBs with TEs much. They also have a more mediocre QB. Phil Rivers tore Bishop a new one in the Chargers game.

Hawk was also outstanding in 2010. The only time I saw him mentioned was in the NO game last year, nothing for 2010 or for the rest of 2011. They didn't even list his numbers.

But since people don't like AJ, nobody wants to credit him for running a super bowl winning D. Or running a D that help the team go 19-0 for a stretch without surrendering the lead in the 4th quarter.

I don't have a problem with Bishop playing the run. I do have a major problem when the O lines a TE up on his side and he is forced to cover. In which he was much worse than Hawk.

Personally, I think because people have gotten a "bad feeling" about Hawk, they like to undersell him. And over sell Bishop for the same reason. A couple flashy plays and all the sudden he is the most complete LB in the league.

While I may agree that Hawk doesn't look like a top 5 overall pick, that alone doesn't make Bishop better. If Bishop were a top 5 overall pick, he would not be living up to those expectations in the passing game either.

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



Bishop was rewarded with a new contract and a starting job in 2011. Exactly how good is he after just one year as a starter? Only he and James Farrior had ratings above +4.0 in each defensive category: run defense, pass rush, and pass coverage. His play has pushed Nick Barnett to the backup spot heading into 2011, despite Barnett being one of the league’s best inside linebackers in 2009.



That's from 2010. This makes sense, as Bishop was one of the best inside backers in the NFC from a statistical point of view in '10. He had a Pro Bowl caliber season that year. As pertaining to the last two seasons, well, Zero's link lens credence to the theory that Bishop's outperformed Hawk since assuming a starter’s role in 2010.

Head Coach Mike McCarthy has said Smith will have a chance to push for a starting role this season which could mean moving on without Hawk and his $4.4 million in salary cap money. With this year’s fifth-round draft pick Terrell Manning from NC State and the recent move of Brad Jones and Jamari Lattimore from OLB to ILB, the team appears to be in position to do so. However, the Packers have a history of questionable decisions when it comes to the #5 pick in the 2006 Draft. The Packers coaches kept Bishop languishing on the bench behind Hawk (a move that many, including Bishop himself, questioned publicly) for a good two years before an injury to Nick Barnett early in 2010 finally got him on the field. Bishop immediately went about the task of proving to Packer management how wrong they had been. Over the last two seasons Bishop has graded out at +46.3 to Hawk’s -3.8.



Hawk gave the Packers four years of good to average football. His expectations were overblown when the Packers took him. He's a victim in that regard. However, he's regressed since the move to a 3-4. It might be a scheme problem or it might be that his skills have simply maxed out. Still, you obviously can win many games with Hawk as your starting inside backer. The Packers have. However, he's simply not as valuable to this team as Des Bishop is. The Packers seem to be considering the idea that he's not as valuable as what D.J. Smith could be, too. We'll see about that last one, though.
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Stevetarded
12 years ago

I didn't see where they summarized both Hawk and Bishops performance from last year in any of those links. I think Bishop had a better game against NY in the passing game because they don't attack the LBs with TEs much. They also have a more mediocre QB. Phil Rivers tore Bishop a new one in the Chargers game.

Hawk was also outstanding in 2010. The only time I saw him mentioned was in the NO game last year, nothing for 2010 or for the rest of 2011. They didn't even list his numbers.

But since people don't like AJ, nobody wants to credit him for running a super bowl winning D. Or running a D that help the team go 19-0 for a stretch without surrendering the lead in the 4th quarter.

I don't have a problem with Bishop playing the run. I do have a major problem when the O lines a TE up on his side and he is forced to cover. In which he was much worse than Hawk.

Personally, I think because people have gotten a "bad feeling" about Hawk, they like to undersell him. And over sell Bishop for the same reason. A couple flashy plays and all the sudden he is the most complete LB in the league.

While I may agree that Hawk doesn't look like a top 5 overall pick, that alone doesn't make Bishop better. If Bishop were a top 5 overall pick, he would not be living up to those expectations in the passing game either.

Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



The difference between the two in the passing game had to be what like 10 receptions and maybe a TD. Those numbers seem pretty insignificant over the course of an entire season. Especially when you consider everything Bishop does better. I'll take all of the times he pressures/sacks the QB or drops a runner a yard shy of the first down over those 10 or so receptions.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/12/secret-superstar-d-j-smith-lb-green-bay-packers/ 
Here's one that makes some comparisons
blank
Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago
I looked on pro football reference and they have a stat called adjusted value.

Bisho was rated 8 in '10 and 7 in '11. With out starting he had a 2 rating in '09.
Hawk was rated an 8 in '09 a 10 in '10 and 6 in '11. In 6 years he has averaged about an 8.

But at least that site seem to say that Hawk is a touch better than Bishop.

Personally I think that is a bunch of crap. I wouldn't use it to prove anything except that opinions vary.

The stats I want to see are, where does Bishop rank in passer rating allowed across the league? Where does Hawk. How many yards do they give up. How many tackles do they miss.

The MJS online said Hawk missed 15 tackles and Bishop only missed 10. However (and this is huge) Bishop allowed 10 plays of 20 or more yards and Hawk only allowed 5.5. Bishop had 0 batted passes and Hawk had 2.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/the-rodgers-file-c63ua6p-138019428.html 

You can't really compare blitz numbers because Hawk is the lead on the cross dog blitz and his job is to free up Bishop. Which he was pretty effective at. He still managed 15 QB disruptions to Bishops 20.

On this site Raashan Saalami posted the passer rating of all the defenders through 12 games. Both Bishop and Hawk were injured for the next couple game so the total number should be fairly close. Bishop surrendered about a 123 passer rating and Hawk surrendered about an 85.

See, we can find the numbers. Lets add them up and figure this out. I want to see some head to head comparisons of full seasons. Not just that Bishop had a +7 in one game last year. I have no idea what that means or how good it is. He could have had a -15 in the Chargers game. He could have finished year with a plus 1.

Without real concrete numbers, all I see is looks, seems, appears, bigger impact etc. What that tells me is, you like Bishop more so your eye test is not accurate.

I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

The difference between the two in the passing game had to be what like 10 receptions and maybe a TD. Those numbers seem pretty insignificant over the course of an entire season. Especially when you consider everything Bishop does better. I'll take all of the times he pressures/sacks the QB or drops a runner a yard shy of the first down over those 10 or so receptions.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/12/secret-superstar-d-j-smith-lb-green-bay-packers/ 
Here's one that makes some comparisons

Originally Posted by: Stevetarded 



Those 9 more receptions all gave up 20 or more yards. If that was 9 more TDs, that is a big problem.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Stevetarded
12 years ago

The difference between the two in the passing game had to be what like 10 receptions and maybe a TD. Those numbers seem pretty insignificant over the course of an entire season. Especially when you consider everything Bishop does better. I'll take all of the times he pressures/sacks the QB or drops a runner a yard shy of the first down over those 10 or so receptions.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/12/secret-superstar-d-j-smith-lb-green-bay-packers/ 
Here's one that makes some comparisons

Originally Posted by: Stevetarded 



"Bishop immediately went about the task of proving to Packer management how wrong they had been. Over the last two seasons Bishop has graded out at +46.3 to Hawk’s -3.8."

blank
Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

"Bishop immediately went about the task of proving to Packer management how wrong they had been. Over the last two seasons Bishop has graded out at +46.3 to Hawk’s -3.8."

Originally Posted by: Stevetarded 



How do they come up with that stat. Does it include giving up a 123 passer rating? Does it include giving up 10 plays of 20+ yards?
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

"Bishop immediately went about the task of proving to Packer management how wrong they had been. Over the last two seasons Bishop has graded out at +46.3 to Hawk’s -3.8."

Originally Posted by: Stevetarded 


Quoted from that link.

"It gives you an idea of which players are best at causing disruption when given the green light to pin their ears back and charge the quarterback. Bishop is among the league’s very best at ILB and Hawk is among the Top 20."

What I see is, Hawk is among the top 20 in disrupting the QB in spite of being the road grader for Bishop in the cross dog blitz. Hawk is taking on linemen leaving Bishop 1-1 on a running back.

I also saw nothing that graded the pass coverage. Which is usually about half of the LBs job.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
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