Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
(giggle) tax reform (giggle)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Cheesey
13 years ago
The "rich" pay the majority of the taxes.
That's fact.
Can you blame them for trying to protect their income from the tax wolves?

If the government would start trying to live with some self imposed regulation, and not just spend spend spend like drunken sailors, we could lower taxes for EVERYONE.

But when they are spending other people's money, (OUR money), what incentive is there for them to control themselves???

Walker has been trying to do just that, making Wisconsin live within it's means, and he has the unions crying and the democrats painting him as some kind of evil person.

THAT my friends, is what you get when you TRY to buck the system. You get attacked and you get an attempt to be thrown out of office.

Walker's opponent, Tom Barrett, has done NOTHING positive as Mayor of Milwaukee. He can't point to ANYTHING he has done as a reason to elect him governor. All he has been doing is slinging S**T at the wall, and HOPING that something sticks.
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dyeah_gb
13 years ago

The wealthy deal from a stacked deck, they always have and always will. That is why I make way off the wall comments like "let's get out the guillotine". Does it piss you off that you don't get to shelter income and be a hog at the trough when they do it and legally because they own the politicians?

This shit has been going on since the beginning of time. There are people who live by their conscience and live the right way. And then there are those who cheat, lie, and steal their way through life.

For every person that earned all of their wealth there are 10 that gained their wealth by either inheritence or by doing shady crap. Thankfully, Wade assures me there is a God and will be a judgement day to make everthing right.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



One of the most troubling thing I see with liberals is that they don't believe in personal property. For Obama and the libs, all money is the government's money that they graciously allow the masses a percentage of. It is a moral outrage to Dems that the rich keep their money because dems don't want them to have the freedom of pursuit of property.

Also, all this nonsense about the rich paying less taxes than their secretary is a lie. You get taxed when you make the money and you get taxed on the profits you make when you invest it. It is in this secondary category that the complaints are coming from. Ironically Buffet is the one in a legal battle to avoid paying taxes for his airline profits: Buffet's battle with the IRS 


Like Cheesey pointed out, the rich are contributing to most of the tax revenue. Libs tax you when you earn it, when you invest it. They even tax you when you die and try to give it to a relative. It really is sick.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - R. Feynman
DakotaT
13 years ago




Like Cheesey pointed out, the rich are contributing to most of the tax revenue. Libs tax you when you earn it, when you invest it. They even tax you when you die and try to give it to a relative. It really is sick.

Originally Posted by: dyeah_gb 



This is a bunch of bullshit. The middle class contribute the most to taxes, and most of us don't have the means to shelter our money away from taxation because we need our finances as we struggle through life. When the wealthy actually pay income tax in the top bracket on all of their income, I'll shut my mouth on this subject. Their tax attorneys allow enough income to be taxed to keep them out of prison on tax evasion. The middle class pay taxes on all their income, nothing gets sheltered. So the middle class end up paying a greater effective rate than the wealthy do.

There is a big difference between the words rich and wealthy. The wealthy do not pay estate taxes because the laws allow them to put in trust most of their assets to their surviving relatives tax free. These people then get to lead care free lives and this is why I call them the real welfare cases of the world.

The IRS should just drop all the loopholes allow the first $50K tax free for a family, and $25K for an individual. Inheritance gets treated as income, because that's exactly what it is.
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dyeah_gb
13 years ago

This is a bunch of bullshit. The middle class contribute the most to taxes, and most of us don't have the means to shelter our money away from taxation because we need our finances as we struggle through life. When the wealthy actually pay income tax in the top bracket on all of their income, I'll shut my mouth on this subject. Their tax attorneys allow enough income to be taxed to keep them out of prison on tax evasion. The middle class pay taxes on all their income, nothing gets sheltered. So the middle class end up paying a greater effective rate than the wealthy do.

There is a big difference between the words rich and wealthy. The wealthy do not pay estate taxes because the laws allow them to put in trust most of their assets to their surviving relatives tax free. These people then get to lead care free lives and this is why I call them the real welfare cases of the world.

The IRS should just drop all the loopholes allow the first $50K tax free for a family, and $25K for an individual. Inheritance gets treated as income, because that's exactly what it is.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



Actually the top 10% pay about 70% of the taxes. In addition, the more troubling stat is that the bottom half contribute 3%. I dont consider the middlle class in the top 10%. I really don't care how much the rich make or how much the trust fund babies make. In terms of the tax code, I do the same things as the rich. I go to H&R block and have someone look at my taxes so i don't have to pay more than I legally have to. if the tax guy told me that I would save money by sheltering money, I would consider it.

I agree with your point that our tax codes are too complicated. The legal case between Buffet and the IRS says as much.

The main point is, I don't mind paying my taxes, or even more, if some care was taken in how the money was spent. Unfortunately, The opposite is what actually happens. .


The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - R. Feynman
DakotaT
13 years ago
Money waste is a prespective thing. I think floating our military empire around the world making companies like Halliburton billions is a grotesque waste of taxpayer funds. The war on terror nearly bankrupted us and still might, but the stockholders in companies making weapons made out like bandits.

As for taxes - I'm talking about percentage of income that an individual pays in to the government. Then we can take it to the other end of spectrum and see who is sucking us dry. You have the welfare people of course, which is a huge Republican tool to get votes from average people. But we are also giving elderly people surgery after surgery to prolong their lives. By the time these people finally pass away, they have way exceded what they ever paid into the government.

Managing a civilization like we enjoy takes a lot of funds. It would sure be nice if the two sides could work together. What we have in government now is obstructionists, the people with bad ideas versus the people with no ideas. As I've grown older, I have turned in my heartless Republican idealisms an realized that this isn't a world for individualists, it is a world for collectivists. We are now at the end of the thirty years of the trickle down economics and we are in debt up to our eyeballs and the economy sucks. The right wing wants to blame that on Obama - how fuckin dumb do they think people are?

But back to Scott Walker, this is going to be huge, and all of America is watching.
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dingus
13 years ago
This is an interesting example of the type of politician Walker is:

http://wcmcoop.com/members/walker-betrays-hunters-gun-owners-with-privatization-scheme/ 

and then there's this, Wisconsin leads nation in Job lossess 3/11 - 3/12

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/wisconsin/feds-say-wisconsin-led-nation-in-jobs-losses-between-march-2011-march-2012 
blank
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

Money waste is a prespective thing. I think floating our military empire around the world making companies like Halliburton billions is a grotesque waste of taxpayer funds. The war on terror nearly bankrupted us and still might, but the stockholders in companies making weapons made out like bandits.

As for taxes - I'm talking about percentage of income that an individual pays in to the government. Then we can take it to the other end of spectrum and see who is sucking us dry. You have the welfare people of course, which is a huge Republican tool to get votes from average people. But we are also giving elderly people surgery after surgery to prolong their lives. By the time these people finally pass away, they have way exceded what they ever paid into the government.

Managing a civilization like we enjoy takes a lot of funds. It would sure be nice if the two sides could work together. What we have in government now is obstructionists, the people with bad ideas versus the people with no ideas. As I've grown older, I have turned in my heartless Republican idealisms an realized that this isn't a world for individualists, it is a world for collectivists. We are now at the end of the thirty years of the trickle down economics and we are in debt up to our eyeballs and the economy sucks. The right wing wants to blame that on Obama - how fuckin dumb do they think people are?

But back to Scott Walker, this is going to be huge, and all of America is watching.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



Sorry, my friend, but the bold sentence accents your fatal assumption, and Obama's and virtually everyone else who believes that the government solves problems.

Civilization is not something that needs management.

Civilization is what removes the need for management. Civilization is what exists when social ties are built upon trust of fellow members of society. Trust that is willing to have faith that others will often enough be forbear to take everything that they can get through power and influence and ability. Forbearance that recognizes that we survive together by our willingness not to insist upon everything we "deserve."

If we truly need a lot of funds to manage ourselves, we are either:
1. Barbarians.
2. Mental incompetents.
3. Children.

Or, occasionally, puppies.

Are we a civilization?

Tocqueville probably was the first to realize it fully. The first to realize that our genius wasn't "democracy." That it was democracy taking place "in America." The genius of American civilization was our willingness to trust each other through a web of social ties, ties built through churches, sporting teams, barn-raisings, saloons, coffee shops, trade associations, commodity exchanges, and the thousands of other ways we associate with each other.

Civilization doesn't come from the king, and it doesn't come from the emperor, and it doesn't come from the czar, and it doesn't come from the chief or the CEO. It doesn't come from corporations, it doesn't come and it doesn't come from Congressional committees. It doesn't come from the governor or from the "loyal opposition."

It doesn't come from application of the ideas of Plato or Machiavelli or even from Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

It comes from us. From us joining together in places like our church congregations, our little leagues, our Packershome.com and our slashdot.org and, yes, even our Facebook groups.

Civilization comes from us.

Or it doesn't come at all.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DakotaT
13 years ago
Wade, I think you overestimate the intelligence of the less fortunate in the world. If everyone was capable like you, then I'd agree with your no taxing people, but because there are so many dependent on others, then I disagree with your whole premise.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

Wade, I think you overestimate the intelligence of the less fortunate in the world. If everyone was capable like you, then I'd agree with your no taxing people, but because there are so many dependent on others, then I disagree with your whole premise.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



I can't speak for the rest of the world. But with respect to the United States, I fear you are correct. Tocqueville's observations were made in the first half of the nineteenth century. They were not made where most of our country's "associations" are now networked around bimbos like Kim Kardashian and Survivor contestants and pinheads like Romney and Obama, and the links between "average Americans" are virtually manipulable at will by ad agencies, auto-responders, and talking heads that can string together random cliches. Frankly, I fear that zombieslayer is right -- we've simply become a nation of zombies.

I'm not claiming that we have what it takes to "save" our "civilization". Indeed, I grow more skeptical daily.

I'm only saying that if we ourselves don't have what it takes, no amount of taxation (or government use of the tax revenues) is going to save us.



And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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