vegOmatic
14 years ago
It's amazing that after 300 years of modern prison reform, billions of tax dollars, and tons of bleeding hearts, that people still think that being nice to bad people will make bad people nice.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Well, thousands of years of prison usage has demonstrated conclusively that being cruel to bad people doesn't make them any better. The fact is that the practice of imprisonment is irretrievably flawed. It fundamentally clashes with human nature. Putting people into cages like animals doesn't work, it never has worked, it never will work. It is also unfair to the victims and to society at large. As others have pointed out, prison is basically a training ground for sharpening criminal skills, while stoking the flames of rage. It is no coincidence that the recidivism rate is so high.

I believe we need to move away from the retributive/rehabilitative dichotomy and toward a restitutive model. If someone steals a $10,000 car, putting him in prison at $30,000 a year doesn't benefit anyone, least of all the victim. But if he now is forced to work off his debt to the victim at some minimal wage, that not only benefits the victim, it relieves the burden imposed upon society by imprisonment. Yes, I am advocating the return to (temporary) slavery for criminals. This has the advantage of not honing the animalistic instincts of criminals, while providing a material benefit to the victims. During their period of enslavement, convicts could lead relatively normal lives: they could have families, they could moonlight at paying jobs, they could go to the bars at night. There would be a lot less incentive to "get back" at the world after having been deprived of their essential humanity for years.

Restitutive penalties for strictly financial injuries would be relatively easy to impose. What would get trickier would be imposing penalties for crimes less easy to quantify; for example, physical injuries from assault. What if a robber cut off someone's hand? By the old lex talionis ("eye for an eye") principle, he would have his hand cut off. But again, that doesn't benefit the victim directly. I would propose that such crimes should be settled in the tort courts. In other words, the victim could sue for damages and appeal for whatever relief he desired. A person with a vindictive streak might indeed petition for the perpetrator's hand to be cut off as some form of psychological or emotional restitution, and a judge might even allow it. I would imagine, however, that someone whose livelihood was dependent on his hands (an artist or surgeon, for example) would be far more interested in financial compensation. The claim could be settled like any other suit and would result in some sort of lien being attached to the perp.

Such a system could lead to the development of new forms of liability insurance, in which people would take out policies to guard against the possibility of such suits.

Still trickier would be cases of murder, sexual assault, kidnapping, etc. I personally favor capital punishment for murder, since murder is forever, but if the family of the victim preferred other forms of satisfaction, more power to them. I know a lot of people say that sexual assault is worse than murder, but having experienced sexual assault first hand, I find that idea grossly offensive. I certainly got fucked up in the head for a few years after the ordeal, but after some emotional and psychological healing, I was able to go on and have a life with a woman who loves me, a couple of adorable but annoying children, etc. Do I think the guy should die for what he did? No. Would it bother me if he had had his left nut cut off? Not at all, particularly since he has no reproductive ambitions and thus doesn't need it anyway.

I don't understand why people believe the state should impose penalties for crimes. Why not settle criminal cases like civil cases, with a judge presiding to ensure that the law is upheld, a jury weighing evidence and determining guilt, and upon conviction, the penalty being negotiated and settled between perpetrator and victim?
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zombieslayer
14 years ago
Interesting stuff, NSD.

I don't believe in capital punishment. On paper, yes, it is the "right" thing to do. But given that I am a "limited government" guy, it contradicts with my belief in small, weak government. A government that can kill its citizens is not a small, weak government. So it's one of those things that I'm torn on.

I don't believe in the current prison system. I've personally known guys who have gone in for non-violent crimes, gotten raped, and came out thugs, much worse than going in.

Now Cheesey talks about country clubs. Yes, there are country club prisons and they're for white collar criminals. Those prisons are pretty nice. I've seen some with golf courses. WTF!

But regular prisons are a nightmare. You have some that are well-run and decently managed, but others where the vast majority of the people in there get raped, which I wouldn't wish on anyone. How does that reform a criminal?

Murderers I have no sympathy for. I think Pelican Bay has it right - isolate them from each other. Violent criminals are pretty much kept away from us, as they should be. I don't want murderers out on the streets interacting with you and me. I want them put away forever. (Although in the current state of prison, I do want them to have appeals because in a truly just society, we have to be careful that we don't put the wrong guy in prison and we have to be sure even after he's put away that we didn't make a mistake. There have been way too many cases of innocent people who have been put away).

Criminals shouldn't get raped. If it takes isolating them, then that's what needs to be done. I'm all for chain gangs as criminals need to know they should work off their crimes to society. And yes, I'm for education in prisons as I want these people coming out better people than they came in. That should be one of the main ideas of prison - reform these people into good guys.

I don't know how though. This is far from an area I know much about.
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vegOmatic
14 years ago
Y'all forget... go to prison and you have many opportunities to learn a trade, get your GED, or even a college degree. Today's American prison is a chance to start over and to turn your life around.

It may be a shock to many of you that the reforms many here suggest should be implemented are already in place. But are these opportunities utilized or taken advantage?

I don't see any of you taking the locks off the doors to your house because it's such a simple answer to fix bad people.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Y'all forget... go to prison and you have many opportunities to learn a trade, get your GED, or even a college degree. Today's American prison is a chance to start over and to turn your life around.

It may be a shock to many of you that the reforms many here suggest should be implemented are already in place. But are these opportunities utilized or taken advantage?

I don't see any of you taking the locks off the doors to your house because it's such a simple answer to fix bad people.

Originally Posted by: vegOmatic 




That educational opportunity is not as valuable as one thinks.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
By the way, when I described prisons as "cages," above, I meant just that. A few years back, an Indianpolis judge discovered that prisons in Indianapolis were allotting less room to individual prisoners than the city mandated that dog owners provide in their kennels!

Y'all forget... go to prison and you have many opportunities to learn a trade, get your GED, or even a college degree.

Originally Posted by: vegOmatic 


Yes, and as the recruiters are always so quick to assure you, you can go to college while on active duty! If you can somehow manage to convince your command to let you sign up, that is -- and if your NCOs decide to let you off work now and then to go to class. Just because the opportunity is theoretically available doesn't mean it is practical. Soldiers have to pay back financial assistance every semester for getting F's that result from their units refusing to let them go to class.

I don't see any of you taking the locks off the doors to your house because it's such a simple answer to fix bad people.

Originally Posted by: vegOmatic 


This answer is such a pathetic excuse for a red herring that it doesn't merit a response.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
I have to admit, I've always liked the "Escape from New York" approach to incarceration of heavy duty felons...
1. Apart from the wall/guards, it lets the thugs take care of themselves.
2. And it gets rid of one of the most useless of social institutions, New York City.


(was Kurt Russell's greatest role, too.)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
The allusion totally escapes me.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

The allusion totally escapes me.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



The young these days. 😳

Escape from New York
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Escape from New York

Escape from New York is a 1981 American science fiction action film directed and scored by John Carpenter. He also co-wrote the screenplay with Nick Castle. The film is set in the near future in a crime-ridden United States that has converted Manhattan Island in New York City into a maximum security prison. Ex-soldier and legendary fugitive "Snake" Plissken (Kurt Russell) is given 24 hours to find the President of the United States, who has been captured by inmates after Air Force One crashed on the island.



It also had Adrienne Barbeau, who was pretty hot at the time.



And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Cheesey
14 years ago
I don't know....i find it hard to feel sorry for people that do awful things to others, and then have to pay for said crimes with prison.
Like i said before, it's not like they are innocent people picked up off the street and thrown into prison.
Two criminals just moved into the townhouse next to us. One is a felon. I don't know what they did.
But they did their time. I will treat them with respect as long as they they treat me with respect.
If they do something that gets them sent back, who's fault will it be?
Back in the 1980's i was robbed by my car. If the guy had been caught, i would have loved to be able to hand out his punishment. I haven't been the same since. I was always trusting of people. I think even now sometimes i'm too trusting.
You do the crime, you do the time.
What's wrong with that?
If criminals don't want to go to awful unhuman prisons, DON'T COMMIT CRIMES.
Pretty simple answer, if you ask me.
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