Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

Look into the work of two individuals: Michel Foucault and Michael Ignatieff. Both make it pretty clear that the prisons, as tools of achieving reformation, are inevitably designed to fail because they were never built to achieve that end.

Pretty compelling stuff, if not utterly fascinating. And it should be a serious wake up call to those who think prisons need to be better at reforming prisoners.

Originally Posted by: all_about_da_packers 



Foucault was a big surprise to me when I was in grad school. He was a damn good historian; too bad his stuff got hijacked by so many "post-modern" lightweights.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Cheesey
14 years ago
You can't 'reform" criminals. They are criminals by choice.
Prison should be a place of punishment. The problem is, it isn't that at all. It is more like a country club, where bad guys learn to be even better at their crimes. So when they get out, they are usually more violent and better at not getting caught. Just watch the specials they have on TV about prisons, and you will see what i mean.
If they made prison a HORRIBLE place to be, more bad guys would want to make SURE to not have to go back.
Charlie Manson said it all best. He said he had all the drugs and sex he could want in prison. Plus not having to worry about food or rent. He felt like it was "home". How is THAT a deterrnent?

And as far as making drugs legal. Of COURSE that would make the crime rate go down! If you make illegal things legal, what would you expect? make armed robbery legal, and the crime rate would go down too.
When there is no fear of punishment, that will just make more people become criminals.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

It is more like a country club

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 


You have clearly never stepped foot inside a prison. A prison is the most horrible place I could imagine -- and I was on the right side of the bars. It took me almost two years to recover from the emotional trauma of working in that hell hole. That place fucked me over worse than being sexually assaulted by an obese faggot ever did.

Just watch the specials they have on TV about prisons, and you will see what i mean.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 


TV specials are made for entertainment. Reality is a far distant second priority.

If they made prison a HORRIBLE place to be, more bad guys would want to make SURE to not have to go back.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 


There is absolutely no evidence this is the case; if anything, the evidence points to the contrary. Do some reading on horrible prisons -- the prisons of the Elizabethan age come to mind -- and see how effective they were. (Hint: they weren't.)

The more savage you make the punishment, the hotter you stoke the fires of rage and revenge. That gets prison guards killed, and rightfully so. The real problem is that it also gets innocent civilians killed once the convicts are released.

When there is no fear of punishment, that will just make more people become criminals.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 


And yet again, I spend a long time writing a detailed, cogent argument, and you fail to address a single point I make. I don't know why I bother.
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Cheesey
14 years ago
I don't know why either.
Fact is, i listen to the actual criminals about this kind of thing. Is prison "bad?" Yes. It takes away their freedom.
But look at the statistics. There are more repeat criminals then "reformed" ones. For us "normal" people that have a conscience, yes, WE would never want to be in prison. It WOULD be "hell" for people like us.
If it's so bad, then answer WHY there is such a revolving door in our prisons today? if it's that bad, wouldn't that keep people from reoffending???
Yet that's not how it's going.
I guess it isn't as bad as you say it is. Most criminals are too lazy to actually work for their money. It's easier to steal or sell drugs. They want the "easy" way. You can't rehabilitate people that have no desire to rehabilitate.
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yooperfan
14 years ago
I worked a total of 25 years in 2 different maximum security prisons.
I could try to explain to you Cheesey how wrong you are but you have seen it all on TV so you know it all.
NSD spent the time to lay it out pretty clearly for you.
Prison ain't no "country club", it's alot worse for both the prisoners and Corrections Officers than you see on TV.
Thosr programs really piss me off.
Cheesey
14 years ago
My friend is a corrections officer in Florida. He has told me what it's like. Prisoners throwing piss on him, and so on. So just what is the answer then? Turn the prisons into colleges? Haven't they done that already, as far as free education for prisoners that want it?
But as i'm sure you know, most of them don't use the freebies they could get.
I don't know it all, i know that. But if people didn't do the awful things that land them in prison, they wouldn't be in those horrible places, would they? Who's fault is it that they are there? Am i supposed to feel sorry for them for making the wrong choices?My Dad died when i was 16, and my Mom changed into someone i didn't know. I had plenty of reasons to become a criminal. I CHOSE not to.
Please remember, these arn't innocent people just plucked off the street and thrown into prison. They KNEW the chance they were taking when they chose to commit the crimes that got them there.
Sorry if i don't feel sorry for those that chose to prey on the innocent victims.
I feel sorry ofr those that were preyed upon.
Does that make me a bad person?
Seems like i am attacked for feeling this way.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago
The education available is not exactly sufficient. At least in my County Jail experience, it was awful. The books were scribbled on, some pages ripped out, things like that.

Prisons are too comfortable. I have a close relative who's been in prison for nearly 8 yrs. They've been in about five different prisons and yes, you lose your freedom, and that's a tough pill to swallow, but after you get over that, it's not that bad. When I did my five months, the first two months were hell, but after that, I had fun. I didn't have to pay bills, didn't have to worry about anything other than shower time.

When I say prisons contain inmates, it's true, for the most part. There's little to no reforming going on unless you can self reform, which if you're parole eligible you can express your remorse and attempt to display your reform to the board and hope they buy into it. One issue is the longer you spend in prison, the harder it is to adapt to your new life. That's what it is too, it's a new life. You spend nearly every hour thinking you'll do this, do that, do better at this, improve that, etc... and once you get out you realize the world has changed and that's exciting, and scary at the same time. You question, how do I fit in? I have to provide my three hots now, I have to provide my cot now. I don't have someone telling me what to do and when to do it.

Inmates break the law because they couldn't live in society under the current laws, right? So then we put them with dozens of others who similarly could not adhere to the laws, what do should we expect from then when they get out?

Monkey see, monkey do. Criminals learn how to be better criminals when all they are surrounded with is other criminals. They are not given positive direction that they've lacked which led them to their incarceration.



I don't have a sure fire answer to reform inmates, all I know is from my personal experience, the system as it stands does the bare minimum and expects miracles.

I was locked up for over 5 months when I was 20. I hated being away from family and friends. My court/release date kept getting messed around with. I got set up and lost all of my books, canteen, clothes, all the things I bought. The guards took my books. I know because I seen one of them reading it and I had my name big black letters on the barcode on the back cover. After awhile I didn't care anymore, I was going to make the most out of it. I became the "pod" clown. I entertained everyone. I learned I was one of the smartest (of the idiots) in there. That's not being arrogant, I proved it repeatedly and loved it, until I realized being the smartest idiot meant nothing. I learned everyone's tell, I learned more card games than I knew existed and I dominated them in their own game under their own rules. I learned how to make people back down, even if they were twice my size. I made a choice, I didn't belong there. I was better than they were and knew it. I was the only one out of 16 men who openly admitted he failed obeying the law. Every one of them made excuses. It was beyond insane. I vowed to never go back. I vowed to be a better man in society. I more importantly vowed to never let myself be one of them.

I feel the difference between most of them and myself was a clear understanding of right and wrong and ability to accept accountability for my failures. Sure, I did a lot when I was younger, made a lot of mistakes and knew I had to grow up. I didn't make excuses, I did my time. I changed myself, ME, not the system. I observed others, I heard their stories, I heard their excuses. Men twice my age couldn't admit a single fault. One may argue that WAS the system at work. I disagree. I was there, they didn't give a shit about me. When I was being released, one of the guards said "you'll be back slim". I shot out a cocky grin an said "hell you will".

My motivation came from wanting to be a better man, better father, where do they get their motivation from? I believe mine came from how I was raised. How can we expect inmates to behave as such if they were never shown or taught self pride, dignity, maturity, responsibility, accountability?



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yooperfan
14 years ago

My friend is a corrections officer in Florida. He has told me what it's like. Prisoners throwing piss on him, and so on. So just what is the answer then? Turn the prisons into colleges? Haven't they done that already, as far as free education for prisoners that want it?
But as i'm sure you know, most of them don't use the freebies they could get.
I don't know it all, i know that. But if people didn't do the awful things that land them in prison, they wouldn't be in those horrible places, would they? Who's fault is it that they are there? Am i supposed to feel sorry for them for making the wrong choices?My Dad died when i was 16, and my Mom changed into someone i didn't know. I had plenty of reasons to become a criminal. I CHOSE not to.
Please remember, these arn't innocent people just plucked off the street and thrown into prison. They KNEW the chance they were taking when they chose to commit the crimes that got them there.
Sorry if i don't feel sorry for those that chose to prey on the innocent victims.
I feel sorry ofr those that were preyed upon.
Does that make me a bad person?
Seems like i am attacked for feeling this way.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 



Who the hell is talking about turning prisons into colleges or feeling sorry for these blood sucking bastards.
You have no idea what goes on inside a maximum security prison.
It seems you have a very skewed idea of what being inside a prison is really like or what is behind the creation of a convict. You have never read a prisoners file or had to jump into a fight where there was a blade involved or see a fellow corrections officer get stabbed or beaten half to death.

I could go on and on about 25 years in prison but reading you posts I think it's pointless.
You seem to think prison is a "country club".
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

Seems like i am attacked for feeling this way.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey 


No one is attacking you. There is nothing wrong with the way you feel. The problem is all your arguments are based purely on how you feel, as well as a few anecdotes you have heard from people or from your own narrow personal experience. Whenever someone counters with an argument from statistics, research, philosophy or logic, you simply evade the argument and lash out with another emotional statement. I find it interesting, for example, that in all our discussions about terrorism, you have never once addressed any of the statements I quote from actual terrorists I personally interviewed; somehow, while your own life experience and that of your friends is the foundation for all your arguments, you utterly dismiss the personal experiences of others, preferring instead to rely on ideological demagoguery spouted by politicians and religious leaders who have no vested interest in finding out what actually goes on in the field. It really is impossible to debate with you.
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Cheesey
14 years ago
Especially since no one has ever admitted that i have alot of valid points. Read what Zero wrote. I'd say that leans heavily towards the point i was trying to make. By saying "country club" i meant that they have no RESPONSIBILITY. They don't have to worry about paying rent, buying food, paying heat and electric.
Seems that everything i say is ignored and i'm put down as i have never been in prison myself.
Zero gave what it was like to be on the other side, and summed it up quite well. Fact is, only if someone WANTS to turn their lives around, will it ever happen. You have to WANT to.
Yooper, you gave what it's like to be a guard. You are NOT a criminal. I'd say that your view of it is as i would see it, a horrible place that no sane person would want to be there.
But to the criminals, obviously they don't care. Otherwise, please explain to me why there are millions of repeat offenders? If it's SOOO awful, wouldn't that alone be a deterent to criminals not to commit more crimes when they get out?
Please, explain this to me.
You seem to think i'm to stupid or naive to "get it".
Instead of just blasting me, please answer that simple question.
I guess me not being a criminal, it's hard for a simple minded guy like me to understand WHY someone would ever willingly do things to get sent back to prison.
I had a friend that was in for 6 months (not Kevin). He told me that even HE couldn't understand HOW someone would EVER do anything to get sent back there. Yet that's what he saw. Guys that got out while he was in there were right back within a few weeks. He made sure that when he got out, he never did anything to have to go back.
Prison is AWFUL. But i guess not bad enough to deter crime from those that have their minds made up to stay in a life of crime.
Prison is there to protect people like me and my family from the scumbags that only care about their own gratification.
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