Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Prescriptive grammarians would say to use "that" for essential clauses and "which" for nonessential clauses.

Essential: "I need to remember to get the dog that I bought last month fixed." Without the subordinate clause, we wouldn't know which dog is being referenced.

Nonessential: "The dog that I bought last night, which I personally believe is the most beautiful specimen I've ever seen, still needs to get fixed." The specific dog has already been referenced; the subordinate clause adds nonessential information.

As for "that that" and "that which," here are some examples:

"I didn't have the heart to tell her that that picture was worthless."

"That which does not kill you will only make you stronger."
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Formo
14 years ago
Wade stole my thunder. I always remember how to state this stuff correctly by eliminating the 2nd person in the sentence and refer to it as if it were just me. So, I'd look at those statements and determine which is grammatically correct by like this:

A) Jimmy and me went to the ice cream shop. Me went to the ice cream shop. Nope.
B) Jimmy and I went to the ice cream shop. I went to the ice cream shop. Sounds great.

A) Mom gave Jimmy and I an ice cream cone. Mom gave I an ice cream cone. Nope.
B) Mom gave Jimmy and me an ice cream cone. Mom gave me an ice cream cone. Yuppers.

As far as the last one, neither sounds right, but I would personally use the first option. Only because I wouldn't know how to state it correctly.
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Packers_Finland
14 years ago

Which of the following constructions are correct? +1 to whomever gets all of them correctly and can explain why they are correct.

A) Jimmy and me went to the ice cream shop.
B) Jimmy and I went to the ice cream shop.

A) Mom gave Jimmy and I an ice cream cone.
B) Mom gave Jimmy and me an ice cream cone.

A) Aren't I the right person for the job?
B) Ain't I the right person for the job?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



B. It's Jimmy and I if you are the subject

B. It's Jimmy and me if you are the object

A. Because the B option sounds too gangsta and just plain wrong.

I really don't know about the subject/object thing, I just picked whichever option sounded better and tried to rationalize it in some random way lol.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

Which of the following constructions are correct? +1 to whomever gets all of them correctly and can explain why they are correct.

A) Jimmy and me went to the ice cream shop.
B) Jimmy and I went to the ice cream shop.

A) Mom gave Jimmy and I an ice cream cone.
B) Mom gave Jimmy and me an ice cream cone.

A) Aren't I the right person for the job?
B) Ain't I the right person for the job?

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



B. It's Jimmy and I if you are the subject

B. It's Jimmy and me if you are the object

A. Because the B option sounds too gangsta and just plain wrong.

I really don't know about the subject/object thing, I just picked whichever option sounded better and tried to rationalize it in some random way lol.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Finland's approach is actually pretty sound.

It's generally my approach.

I'm convinced that the way to learn grammar and usage is by reading. I've never had particularly good grammarians as teachers. Oh, I've picked up a piece here and there from teachers, and more from books like Strunk and White, Fowler, etc (I have a couple dozen lying around in various places).

But the way you change your language practices is largely by osmosis -- as a result of who you listen to. And reading is a form of listening. Questions like Rourke's that ask for a "rule" tend to stump me, because I don't know the rules by name.

I just know what works, and what doesn't. And what sounds barbarous.

About the only rules I try to live by in my writing are Orwell's. (Of course, as Dakota and others will point out, trying is often not succeeding. 🙂 )

Anyway, this is probably a good time to quote Orwell, and give a link to what I think is the most important essay ever written on why attention to language matters.

Orwell's 6 rules:
1. Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
2. Never use a long word where a short one will do.
3. If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
4. Never use the passive where you can use the active.
5. Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
6. Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

Orwell's original article can be found lots of places. Here's one: Politics and the English Language 

I wish I would have remembered to post this before people voted.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
The answers to the first two questions have been successfully identified repeatedly. (Good job, by the way.) I'm still waiting for someone to step up on the third. 🙂
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4PackGirl
14 years ago
don't say ain't cuz ain't ain't a word. well it wasn't when i learned that little diddy. i'm sure by now its been added to the dictionary.
Packers_Finland
14 years ago

The answers to the first two questions have been successfully identified repeatedly. (Good job, by the way.) I'm still waiting for someone to step up on the third. :)

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I'm guessing it's neither. Would it be "Am I not the right man for this job?" then?
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Cheesey
14 years ago
"Grammer Police?"
Are those the cops that arrest Kelsey Grammer every time he gets drunk???

Oh....and Wade gets a +1 from me! FUNNY answer!!!
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Cheesey
14 years ago

Prescriptive grammarians would say to use "that" for essential clauses and "which" for nonessential clauses.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:


What would you use for "Santa Clauses?"
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zombieslayer
14 years ago

The answers to the first two questions have been successfully identified repeatedly. (Good job, by the way.) I'm still waiting for someone to step up on the third. :)

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I'm under the impression they're both wrong. "Aren't I" is a contraction for "Are not I" and that should really be "Am I not." "Ain't" is always wrong because it's slang. However, if we count slang, "Ain't" would be more correct than "Aren't I."

Oh and props to Formo. I correct my own English by the same method Formo does.
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