Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I never said statistics can't be used to make an argument. I said looking at raw, career-long numbers to determine greatness is stupid. The numbers need to be put in context. Even in the 2005 season, when the Packers were decimated by injuries, Favre did more than his fair share to contribute to at least 8 losses. Eight times that season, the Packers entered the 4th quarter down by less than a score, and each time Favre threw (at least) one interception. In several of these games, all the offense needed was a few extra yards for the field game-winning goal, and instead Favre winged it deep downfield directly into the hands of the defenders. He screwed the Packers time after time that year alone.
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
14 years ago
Okay.. so gather the statistic that offers up the percentage of interceptions in which the blame solely relies upon the QB vs error in communication with receiver vs a great play by the defender.

Point is, turn over the playbook and receivers often enough it will impact the statistics and play of any QB.

This is not to absolve anyone from their share of responsibilities in defeat, but the variables and impacts of changes in a combination of any will dramatically change the outcome.

Pointing at the statistics only irresponsibly ignores those effects..
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
14 years ago

I never said statistics can't be used to make an argument. I said looking at raw, career-long numbers to determine greatness is stupid..

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Answer me this.. why is this stupid?

To me.. it is because it ignores all the factors going into that players career..

Yet looking only at any given statistics of a single season only to determine a players level of play is acceptable.. lol.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Since69
14 years ago



Answer me this.. why is this stupid?

To me.. it is because it ignores all the factors going into that players career..

Yet looking only at any given statistics of a single season only to determine a players level of play is acceptable.. lol.

"pack93z" wrote:



Longevity doesn't always equal greatness. Do you think Bruce Smith was better than Reggie White? Do you think Emmitt Smith was better than Barry Sanders?
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
14 years ago



Answer me this.. why is this stupid?

To me.. it is because it ignores all the factors going into that players career..

Yet looking only at any given statistics of a single season only to determine a players level of play is acceptable.. lol.

"Since69" wrote:



Longevity doesn't always equal greatness. Do you think Bruce Smith was better than Reggie White? Do you think Emmitt Smith was better than Barry Sanders?

"pack93z" wrote:



Agreed, and longevity is one of the primary factors.. 100% agreed.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Do you think Emmitt Smith was better than Barry Sanders?

"Since69" wrote:



First time I read this, I skipped the first three words. I almost jumped out of my chair with fury ready to be thrown around like a foot on an ant.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
The problem is that Favre did audible so often at the line of scrimmage it's pretty much impossible to know now how often those crazy interceptions were attributable to flaws in playcalling, miscommunication between the quarterback and receivers, or simply improvisations gone awry.

If the problem was the first factor -- coaches calling for deep passes when only a few yards were needed -- then that does absolve the quarterback of some responsibility and points to coaching miscues.

If it was the second, that would absolve the quarterback of responsibility for many of the turnovers. However, I would still ask, since Favre is often lauded as being the best quarterback in history at reading and reacting to defenses, shouldn't he have been able to read and react to defensive mismatches resulting from these miscommunications? Yes, I know there are many timing plays in which the quarterback throws to where the receiver is supposed to be, but one would think that there would be some times in which it was obvious the receiver was running the wrong way and the quarterback could pull it in.

If it was the third -- which, based on the number of gambles Favre made that just happened to work out, I'm convinced a large number of them were -- then I think his frequent lack of discipline screwed the team at times. I'd love to see a statistical analysis done of how often Favre's improvisations and play changes actually benefited the team and how often they resulted in no gain or backfired. Unfortunately, because (to my knowledge) no permanent record of the actual playcalls exists, that is probably impossible.

It would be awesome if such a record were maintained, though. Even purely for curiosity's sake, it would be interesting to note how often Favre (or any NFL quarterback, for that matter) changed the plays at the line, and what proportion of plays were executed as called.
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
14 years ago

The problem is that Favre did audible so often at the line of scrimmage it's pretty much impossible to know now how often those crazy interceptions were attributable to flaws in playcalling, miscommunication between the quarterback and receivers, or simply improvisations gone awry.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



You do realize, that Mike McCarthy was recently quoted as saying Rodgers has been given more responsibility to Rodgers than any other QB he has had.. which includes audibles at the line of scrimmage.. so it is entirely possible that Aaron is making even more changes at the LOS.

The difference is that Rodgers has been in the system for 5 years and has had the majority of his receivers with him for multiple years.. that is huge.. and we are at the point where we have enough depth built that he will continue to have that for a number of years barring injury.

Personally, I can't absolve any quarterback of an interception.. but without knowing the read and route we can't absolve the receiver either.. that is the thing.. interceptions are a shared stat that falls on one player only... like many stats in the game..

I hate defenses based on stats alone in this game.. baseball and basketball to a point are more individually based where stats mean more individually than football..

How else does one explain a player like Kurt Warner that puts up HOF numbers, goes to another franchise puts up eggs and then another place and puts up HOF numbers yet again.. if you only looked at stats you would have said he was done in the NYG years.. but he was far from it. John Elway comes to mind.. his worst stat years they actually won the Superbowl.. lol.. stats are just part of the story.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I can absolve quarterbacks of responsibility for some interceptions. For example, when the throw is on target but the receiver fails to maintain possession all the way to the ground and thus the defender takes it away, I don't regard that as the quarterback's fault. In fact, I think that there should be a separate statistical category kept for such instances, when the failure to maintain possession doesn't meet the technical criteria for a fumble but neither was the throw uncatchable. I see no reason why stats shouldn't be kept on receivers who fail to complete catches thrown their way.
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
14 years ago

I can absolve quarterbacks of responsibility for some interceptions. For example, when the throw is on target but the receiver fails to maintain possession all the way to the ground and thus the defender takes it away, I don't regard that as the quarterback's fault. In fact, I think that there should be a separate statistical category kept for such instances, when the failure to maintain possession doesn't meet the technical criteria for a fumble but neither was the throw uncatchable. I see no reason why stats shouldn't be kept on receivers who fail to complete catches thrown their way.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I happen to agree.. it would have value in analyzing receivers.

I heard a tale of the NFL adopting a feature for in stadium use like NASCAR does.. a tape delayed audio feed into the coaches radios.. to me... that would draw me back into the stadium and put up with the gameday hassles to get that type of insight into the game.. whom screwed up on the play, etc..

But I see drawbacks to that as well.. however then Bellicheat wouldn't have the be coy about how he won multiple Superbowls.. lol.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Fan Shout
Mucky Tundra (2h) : Getting help would have been nice, but helping ourselves should always be the plan
beast (3h) : Too bad Seahawks couldn't beat Vikings
bboystyle (3h) : We just need to win Monday night and were in
Mucky Tundra (6h) : Or ties, but let's be real here
Mucky Tundra (6h) : Other scenario was Falcons+Rams losses
Mucky Tundra (6h) : Needed a Falcons loss for a Seahawk loss to clinch
buckeyepackfan (6h) : Am I wring in saying if Tge Vikings beat The Seahawks, The Packers clinch?
Mucky Tundra (21-Dec) : Agreed; you stinks
Zero2Cool (21-Dec) : I'm not beating anyone. I stinks.
Mucky Tundra (21-Dec) : rough injury for tank dell. guy can't catch abreak
beast (21-Dec) : So far the college playoffs have sucked... One team absolutely dominates the other
beast (21-Dec) : Well even if you weren't positive towards a guy, you wouldn't nessarily want to tell the media that (if they don't know about it)
Martha Careful (21-Dec) : I think MLF want Love to look past the end half issues, and feel good about his play. Our coaches generally keep a very positive tone.
beast (21-Dec) : I think a great running game will do that for most QBs
packerfanoutwest (21-Dec) : Coach Matt LaFleur has said quarterback Jordan Love is playing the best football of his career.
beast (21-Dec) : Oh, that's how you keep beating buckeye, with cheating
Zero2Cool (20-Dec) : There is a rule that if your name starts with 'b' you lose 15 points. Hey, I don't make the rules, I just enforce them!
wpr (20-Dec) : and then there is Beast. Running away with it all.
beast (20-Dec) : As of tonight, 3 way tie for 2nd in Pick'em, that battle is interesting!
beast (20-Dec) : Lions vs Vikings could be the main last game as it could determine division winners or #1 vs #2 seed
Mucky Tundra (20-Dec) : Or if KC needs to win for the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (20-Dec) : Right now it looks like the only prime worthy games are Det-Minny and KC-Denver (if Denver can clinch a wild card spot)
Mucky Tundra (20-Dec) : The entirety of week 18 being listed as flex is weird
Zero2Cool (19-Dec) : Matt LaFleur today says unequivocally "Ted Thompson had nothing to do with the drafting of Jordan Love."
Zero2Cool (19-Dec) : Apparently, the editing is what pieces comments together. That Ted thing ... fake news.
Zero2Cool (19-Dec) : LaFleur "opportunity that Ted Thompson thought was too good to pass up"
Zero2Cool (19-Dec) : Jordan Love pick was Ted Thompson's idea.
Mucky Tundra (19-Dec) : Kyle Shanahan on signing De'Vondre Campbell as a FA last offseason: “We obviously made a mistake.”
packerfanoutwest (19-Dec) : Alexander’s last season with GB
Martha Careful (18-Dec) : if I were a professional athlete, I would probably look to see who the agent is for Kirk Cousins and then use him
beast (18-Dec) : $100 million fully guaranteed Kirk Cousins gets benched for rookie
Mucky Tundra (18-Dec) : a lower case b
Mucky Tundra (18-Dec) : The real lie is how beast capitalized his name in his message while it's normally spelled with
packerfanoutwest (18-Dec) : haha that's a lie
beast (17-Dec) : Despite what lies other might tell, Beast didn't hate the Winter Warnings, it felt refreshing to Beast for some reason.
Zero2Cool (17-Dec) : whiteout uniforms in general are pretty lame and weak. NFL greed at it's worst
Martha Careful (17-Dec) : The Viking uniforms, the whiteout uniforms specifically absolutely suck
beast (17-Dec) : Thanks Zero2Cool, looks a lot better now
beast (17-Dec) : Seems like someone has a crush on me, can't stop talking about me
Zero2Cool (17-Dec) : Should be gooder now. The forum default theme went to goofy land.
Zero2Cool (17-Dec) : What the hell
packerfanoutwest (17-Dec) : yeah beast hates the Winter Warning Unies
Mucky Tundra (16-Dec) : Okay I'm glad to know it's not just something happening to me lol
Mucky Tundra (16-Dec) : Zero, did you copy the Packers uniforms from last night and white out the board?
beast (16-Dec) : Oh crap, is the board going to the Winter Warning Uniforms too?!? It's all white on white right now!
Zero2Cool (16-Dec) : WR Odell Beckham Jr is officially a free agent after clearing waivers.
Zero2Cool (16-Dec) : Packers are 6th in sacks.
Zero2Cool (16-Dec) : RB David Montgomery will undergo season-ending knee surgery.
Mucky Tundra (16-Dec) : Dan Campbell on onside kick with 12 minutes left: In hindsight, wish I didn’t do that
Zero2Cool (16-Dec) : They have that whole 12th man thing so ...
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 12:00 PM
Vikings
Saturday, Jan 4 @ 11:00 PM
BEARS
Recent Topics
2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

7h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

22-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / packerfanoutwest

19-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

19-Dec / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

18-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

17-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

17-Dec / Featured Content / Zero2Cool

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

16-Dec / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Mucky Tundra

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.