Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I never said statistics can't be used to make an argument. I said looking at raw, career-long numbers to determine greatness is stupid. The numbers need to be put in context. Even in the 2005 season, when the Packers were decimated by injuries, Favre did more than his fair share to contribute to at least 8 losses. Eight times that season, the Packers entered the 4th quarter down by less than a score, and each time Favre threw (at least) one interception. In several of these games, all the offense needed was a few extra yards for the field game-winning goal, and instead Favre winged it deep downfield directly into the hands of the defenders. He screwed the Packers time after time that year alone.
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Pack93z
14 years ago
Okay.. so gather the statistic that offers up the percentage of interceptions in which the blame solely relies upon the QB vs error in communication with receiver vs a great play by the defender.

Point is, turn over the playbook and receivers often enough it will impact the statistics and play of any QB.

This is not to absolve anyone from their share of responsibilities in defeat, but the variables and impacts of changes in a combination of any will dramatically change the outcome.

Pointing at the statistics only irresponsibly ignores those effects..
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
14 years ago

I never said statistics can't be used to make an argument. I said looking at raw, career-long numbers to determine greatness is stupid..

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Answer me this.. why is this stupid?

To me.. it is because it ignores all the factors going into that players career..

Yet looking only at any given statistics of a single season only to determine a players level of play is acceptable.. lol.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Since69
14 years ago



Answer me this.. why is this stupid?

To me.. it is because it ignores all the factors going into that players career..

Yet looking only at any given statistics of a single season only to determine a players level of play is acceptable.. lol.

"pack93z" wrote:



Longevity doesn't always equal greatness. Do you think Bruce Smith was better than Reggie White? Do you think Emmitt Smith was better than Barry Sanders?
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Pack93z
14 years ago



Answer me this.. why is this stupid?

To me.. it is because it ignores all the factors going into that players career..

Yet looking only at any given statistics of a single season only to determine a players level of play is acceptable.. lol.

"Since69" wrote:



Longevity doesn't always equal greatness. Do you think Bruce Smith was better than Reggie White? Do you think Emmitt Smith was better than Barry Sanders?

"pack93z" wrote:



Agreed, and longevity is one of the primary factors.. 100% agreed.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Do you think Emmitt Smith was better than Barry Sanders?

"Since69" wrote:



First time I read this, I skipped the first three words. I almost jumped out of my chair with fury ready to be thrown around like a foot on an ant.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
The problem is that Favre did audible so often at the line of scrimmage it's pretty much impossible to know now how often those crazy interceptions were attributable to flaws in playcalling, miscommunication between the quarterback and receivers, or simply improvisations gone awry.

If the problem was the first factor -- coaches calling for deep passes when only a few yards were needed -- then that does absolve the quarterback of some responsibility and points to coaching miscues.

If it was the second, that would absolve the quarterback of responsibility for many of the turnovers. However, I would still ask, since Favre is often lauded as being the best quarterback in history at reading and reacting to defenses, shouldn't he have been able to read and react to defensive mismatches resulting from these miscommunications? Yes, I know there are many timing plays in which the quarterback throws to where the receiver is supposed to be, but one would think that there would be some times in which it was obvious the receiver was running the wrong way and the quarterback could pull it in.

If it was the third -- which, based on the number of gambles Favre made that just happened to work out, I'm convinced a large number of them were -- then I think his frequent lack of discipline screwed the team at times. I'd love to see a statistical analysis done of how often Favre's improvisations and play changes actually benefited the team and how often they resulted in no gain or backfired. Unfortunately, because (to my knowledge) no permanent record of the actual playcalls exists, that is probably impossible.

It would be awesome if such a record were maintained, though. Even purely for curiosity's sake, it would be interesting to note how often Favre (or any NFL quarterback, for that matter) changed the plays at the line, and what proportion of plays were executed as called.
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Pack93z
14 years ago

The problem is that Favre did audible so often at the line of scrimmage it's pretty much impossible to know now how often those crazy interceptions were attributable to flaws in playcalling, miscommunication between the quarterback and receivers, or simply improvisations gone awry.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



You do realize, that MM was recently quoted as saying Rodgers has been given more responsibility to Rodgers than any other QB he has had.. which includes audibles at the line of scrimmage.. so it is entirely possible that Aaron is making even more changes at the LOS.

The difference is that Rodgers has been in the system for 5 years and has had the majority of his receivers with him for multiple years.. that is huge.. and we are at the point where we have enough depth built that he will continue to have that for a number of years barring injury.

Personally, I can't absolve any quarterback of an interception.. but without knowing the read and route we can't absolve the receiver either.. that is the thing.. interceptions are a shared stat that falls on one player only... like many stats in the game..

I hate defenses based on stats alone in this game.. baseball and basketball to a point are more individually based where stats mean more individually than football..

How else does one explain a player like Kurt Warner that puts up HOF numbers, goes to another franchise puts up eggs and then another place and puts up HOF numbers yet again.. if you only looked at stats you would have said he was done in the NYG years.. but he was far from it. John Elway comes to mind.. his worst stat years they actually won the Superbowl.. lol.. stats are just part of the story.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I can absolve quarterbacks of responsibility for some interceptions. For example, when the throw is on target but the receiver fails to maintain possession all the way to the ground and thus the defender takes it away, I don't regard that as the quarterback's fault. In fact, I think that there should be a separate statistical category kept for such instances, when the failure to maintain possession doesn't meet the technical criteria for a fumble but neither was the throw uncatchable. I see no reason why stats shouldn't be kept on receivers who fail to complete catches thrown their way.
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Pack93z
14 years ago

I can absolve quarterbacks of responsibility for some interceptions. For example, when the throw is on target but the receiver fails to maintain possession all the way to the ground and thus the defender takes it away, I don't regard that as the quarterback's fault. In fact, I think that there should be a separate statistical category kept for such instances, when the failure to maintain possession doesn't meet the technical criteria for a fumble but neither was the throw uncatchable. I see no reason why stats shouldn't be kept on receivers who fail to complete catches thrown their way.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I happen to agree.. it would have value in analyzing receivers.

I heard a tale of the NFL adopting a feature for in stadium use like NASCAR does.. a tape delayed audio feed into the coaches radios.. to me... that would draw me back into the stadium and put up with the gameday hassles to get that type of insight into the game.. whom screwed up on the play, etc..

But I see drawbacks to that as well.. however then Bellicheat wouldn't have the be coy about how he won multiple Superbowls.. lol.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
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