Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
What do we value?
Why do we value it?

I must say this, even though it will probably get both Tripp and Twinkie mad at me. I've never much cared whether the founders were deists, theists, any more than I've cared whether they were porcupine farmers. The whole debate strikes me as miscast.

The question is not whether the republic was founded on God or not; the question is whether the founders got the rules right. And whether we've followed their rules when we should and not followed them when we should.

Part of the problem, of course, is that the U.S. Constitution is set up to be vague. It's short. And its greatest pieces of genius -- its limitation of legislative power by enumeration, its first ten amendments focusing on limiting the state's power -- ensures that future generations must spend a great deal of effort in interpretation.

And, inevitably, a big part of that interpretation becomes "what did the Founders mean?"

Which naturally tempts us into thinking, "well, if we want to know what the founders meant when they said "X" in the Constitution, then we need to know what the individual founders' essential moral, religious, political beliefs were.

But that's where we go wrong. In figuring out what the Constitution says, we're not looking for what the founders as individuals believed about God. We're looking for what they decided collectively about how to constitute a nation and its government. Some of the founders were likely deists, some were likely theists, and some, like Thomas Paine, were undoubtedly atheists.

But the Constitution was decided upon at the intersection of beliefs, not as the union of beliefs. When Madison, et al, were writing the thing, they wrote not just for those who thought the same as they did about religion, politics, etc., but for those who thought differently.

The "intent of the founders" that matters in Constitutional interpretation is that intersection of beliefs. And the intersection of beliefs simply can't be reduced to this or that broad "-ism". Sorry, but the founders did not all share the same ideology, either religiously or politically.

What God wanted, what God "ordained" for them, these did enter into the calculation for some of them. But not for all, and not all in the same way.

The "religion clauses" in the Constitution were a reaction to specific historical experience (the "Established" Church of England, Test and Corporation Acts, 39 Articles, etc.). Attitudes toward non-Christian faiths, to the extent they entered the Constitutional calculation at all, were shaped by several hundred years of interaction between Christian and non-Christian that were, to be frank, very, very different than the interaction of the last 100-150 years.

It's another reason why the genius of Madison, et al, is so profound. Madison and the others didn't know how the world would change, but they knew that the world would change. They weren't just concerned with the specific abuses and usurpations of George III that Jefferson listed in 1776. They were wary of how the evolution of society would offer new opportunities for abuse and usurpation. So they designed the Constitution -- or tried to, anyway -- in a way that said "you can do this, and nothing else. If you want to do something else, then you have to amend the Constitution."

They may never have contemplated the modern nanny state, but they were well aware of the historical possibilities of centralized power and its dangers -- they knew of the history of France and Spain and Portugal, of Venice and Genoa, of the great Asian and North African empires. They also knew of the worries of majoritarianism: many of them feared, as much as did the Tories of England, the possibilities of democracy on the Paine-ite model.

And so they put together a Constitution that was designed, not to grant power, but to limit it. The separation of powers that we all heard about in school between the three branches, and the separation of powers between federal and state that, alas, too few of us learned about -- both of these were to limit power. And, most importantly, they limited the law-making power of the central state via enumerated powers in Article I and the Tenth Amendment.

They wrote the Bill of Rights, not to protect us from bad individuals, but to protect us from the exercise of state power.

Unfortunately, they didn't fully understand how the combination of majoritarianism and economic power-seeking would emasculate those limitations. They didn't understand how easy it would be for a majority to shift the burden of proof to those asserting freedom and away from those claiming a "need" to restrict it.

And they didn't predict how the majority view would come to be that "rights are civil rights, coming from the state". Whether the founders believed that certain rights came from God, from our nature as human beings isn't really important. What's important is that they believed that certain rights (life, liberty,and the pursuit of happiness, as it were) existed wholly apart from state action. Unfortunately, very few of us today (and for this I blame our teachers and elders) believe this. We believe that rights are created through political and state action. "Civil rights".

The right to travel is NOT a privilege. It is a fundamental part of "pursuing happiness". And just as the technology of travel changes, so too does how we wish to pursue happiness. It is neither the state's function, nor should it be in the state's power, to decide how we do so unless we wish to do so in ways that inhibit another's freedom. Without the ability to travel in the technology of the day we have the choices of feudal serfs tied to the land of their lords.

And it is not OUR burden to show there is no inhibition. It is the state's burden to show that there is. Or should be.

As for freedom of religion, freedom from religion, etc. The right is against the state telling us how to practice. The right is against the state telling us how to practice if we want to politically participate. Had we not corrupted ourselves into thinking that the state is our nanny, to thinking that the state's function is to solve all our problems, to regulate everything and anything that our fellow citizens might do, 99.90% of the debates over establishment of religion would be moot. If we had not made ourselves so damned dependent on state funds for everything from education to consumer protection to etc etc etc, we wouldn't have to worry about whether those funds also go help support this religion over that one, or religion over atheist practice.

Too many changes have been made the wrong way. Too many changes have been made by legislation, by improper delegation of both constitutional and legislative functions to bureaucrats and agencies, by improper acquiescence in executive orders. Today's constitution lives and on its face looks like the original, but it no longer matches either the wisdom or the spirit of the Founders'. We might as well be living by the Code Napoleon. Or the collected writings of Jeremy Bentham.

Bah.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
14 years ago


I must say this, even though it will probably get both Tripp and Twinkie mad at me.

"Wade" wrote:



not at all. in fact, i think discussions or questions about this country being better or worse than it's intended roots are too abstract and esoteric to take very seriously. i simply took (and will continue to take) offense at the notion that a believer has a greater moral compass than a non-believer. that this country has become (is becoming?) something which has drifted from it's roots is because we have drifted from "God" is, in my opinion, incredibly insulting to all good people who do good things for the sake of humanity in general...without any "God" in their lives.

I agree with Twinkiegorilla.

bozz_2006 wrote:


Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
(shrug) ok.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
Are we still talking about God, or have we went back to the original topic? :shrug:
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
Well, Kevin, I _tried_ to link the two subthreads. 🙂
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Trippster
14 years ago
Twinkie,

I do not intend to throw anyone under the bus nor do I think I have. I do not understand how you feel personally offended. You don't have to agree with me and that is ok. You are certianly entitled to your point. However, apparently I am not entitled to my point without it being a personal attack on you. why is that?

Some of your post where you quoted me was not my thoughts but rather an excerpt from those in my research. It was comments of those far more educated in this area than I .

I feel that a large group of people (country, world) need transcending values. I feel that the base of this country was founded on christianity and that is why the doctine of this country has worked so well for so long. However, it is no longer that way. I don't think it is a coincidence.

Twinkie, don't take it as a personal afront. But let me ask you a question, why is it so emotionally alienating and offending to you? I think that deserves some examination from within.

The name Jesus creates more emotional reaction than any other name in history. I think it is because of what is at stake. Either one accepts him and (if he is who he says) gets the rewards or, they don't and suffer the greatest concequences of all time (once again, if he is what he claims).

So why such an issue with you?

If there is no God, there is no consequence for bad deeds that arent caught by police etc. However, with the belief of God comes the knowledge that he sees all and you will have to atone for your misdeeds when all is said and done. I think that is so important to civility.

I am tolerant fo your belief, why arent you of a differing view?
"Let Your Light Shine!"
14 years ago
please. now you're attempting to turn this around on me? as if i were the intolerant one? i've never thrown an entire culture of people under a bus for the sake of attempting to make a point. "you know why this country has gone to hell? it's the Jews. it's the atheists. it's everybody without a crucifix above their mantle." whether you like it or not--again--this is, in essence, what you said.

you really don't get how insulting you are being, do you? one need not call names to insult another. sometimes via omission of a word, sometimes via the logic of a phrase, sometimes the intention behind a phrase. in this instance you say "you are entitled to your point but i am not entitled to mine" and this is complete crap. sorry. but it is. if there are points here, again...you're missing them.

your point: this country was founded on Christianity. this country started out "good". therefore, this country was primarily good because it was primarily Christian. this also inherently includes then, the supposition that a Christian with God in their lives is a more morally & ethically sound human being. that this country has become less morally & ethically sound is because we have less Christians, or have moved away from Christianity.

my point: not only are you insulting everybody who is not a Christian, but you are being incredibly self-righteous and making a horrible judgment call against atheists, agnostics, and the secular world. my second point was that you are actually wrong about the founding of this country, but i agree that this is a different argument...one which can be proved through documentation (did you read the link i posted? probably not) yet not the thing which set me off.

these are not points where i say "chocolate is good" and you say "chocolate sucks" and both of us get to have an equally viable opinion. you are, whether you like it or not, patronizing everybody who does not adhere to your beliefs and placing yourself above them...because of those same beliefs (which is ridiculous, in my humble opinion...since religion is basically passed-down-indoctrination and all this usually means is you believe what's been told or taught to you without questioning it). and while you may be "tolerant" of my belief (i really have no proof of this, but i'll take your word) this does not exclude your self-righteous posturing. if you don't see it within yourself (most who believe in things believe also, that they are infallibly right--so it won't surprise me if you continue denying it) then i suggest you slow down and take a closer look within.

also: the idea that a country is more successful because of a reward-system--reminds me of the Spider Drawing Guy:

Permission Slip exchange 

You raise a valid point and I appreciate you pointing out my failings as a parent. Practising a system of ethics based on the promise of a reward, in your case an afterlife, is certainly preferable to practising a system of ethics based on it simply being the right thing to do.


I agree with Twinkiegorilla.

bozz_2006 wrote:


Zero2Cool
14 years ago
I've said it once, I've said it twice, I'll say it again. I believe that if our youth were to be better educated on how the nation became what it was today, accurately and with little to no bias that we'd as a whole appreciate our freedoms and "luxuries" more.

What do you think about that?
UserPostedImage
14 years ago

I've said it once, I've said it twice, I'll say it again. I believe that if our youth were to be better educated on how the nation became what it was today, accurately and with little to no bias that we'd as a whole appreciate our freedoms and "luxuries" more.

What do you think about that?

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



lawlz. yes, Kev. i agree. i also agree that if our textbooks throughout our schooling had a more accurate and detailed account of history with less nationalistic pride and less exclusion of events which shed us in a poor light, we'd be a more educated and cultured country. 😉

I agree with Twinkiegorilla.

bozz_2006 wrote:


Zero2Cool
14 years ago
I agree about the textbooks. We're not a perfect nation and I think it gives others a sense of a need to be perfect. The think of 'hey our founding fathers were perfect, I have to be perfect too!'
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
wpr (14h) : 7 days
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : sounds like Packers don't get good compensation, Jaire staying
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Nobody coming up with a keep, but at x amount
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Trade, cut or keep
dfosterf (16-Apr) : that from Jaire
dfosterf (16-Apr) : My guess is the Packers floated the concept of a reworked contract via his agent and agent got a f'
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Yes, and that is why I think Rob worded it how he did. Rather than say "agent"
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Same laws apply. Agent must present such an offer to Jaire. Cannot accept or reject without presenting it
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : I'm thinking that is why Rob worded it how he did.
dfosterf (16-Apr) : The Packers can certainly still make the offer to the agent
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Laws of agency and definition of fiduciary responsibility
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Jaire is open to a reduced contract without Jaire's permission
dfosterf (16-Apr) : The agent would arguably violate the law if he were to tell the Packers
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : That someone ... likely the agent.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : So, Jaire has not been offered nor rejected a pay reduction, but someone says he'd decline.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovksy says t was direct communication with someone familiar with Jaire’s line of thinking at that moment.
Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovsky just replied to me a bit ago. Jaire hasn't said it.
dfosterf (16-Apr) : Of course, that depends on the definition of "we"
dfosterf (16-Apr) : We have been told that they haven't because he wouldn't accept it. I submit we don't know that
dfosterf (16-Apr) : What is the downside in making a calculated reduced offer to Jaire?
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers are receiving interest in Jaire Alexander but a trade is not imminent
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Jalen Ramsey wants to be traded. He's never happy is he?
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : two 1sts in 2022 and two 2nd's in 2023 and 2024
Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers had fortunate last three drafts.
dfosterf (15-Apr) : I may have to move
dfosterf (15-Apr) : My wife just told the ancient Japanese sushi dude not enough rice under his fish
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I think a dozen is what I need
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Go fund me for this purpose just might work. A dozen nurses show up at 1265 to provide mental health assistance.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Maybe send a crew of Angels to the Packers draft room on draft day.
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I am the Angel that gets visited.
dfosterf (14-Apr) : Visiting Angels has a pretty good reputation
Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : what
Martha Careful (14-Apr) : WINNING IT, not someone else losing it. The best victory though was re-uniting with his wife
Martha Careful (14-Apr) : The manner in which he won it was just amazing and wonderful. First blowing the lead then getting back, then blowing it. But ultimately
Zero2Cool (12-Apr) : I'm guessing since the thumb was broken, he wasn't feeling it.
dfosterf (10-Apr) : Looking for guidance. Not feeling the thumb.
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : If they knew about it or not
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : I don't recall that he did which is why I asked.
Zero2Cool (10-Apr) : Guessing they probably knew. Did he have cast or something on?
Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : Did they know that at the time or was that something the realized afterwards?
Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Van Ness played most of season with broken thumb
wpr (9-Apr) : yay
Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Mark Murphy says Steelers likely to protect Packers game. Meaning, no Ireland
Zero2Cool (8-Apr) : Struggling to figure out what text editor options are needed and which are 'nice to have'
Mucky Tundra (8-Apr) : *CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP*
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : WR who said he'd break Xavier Worthy 40 time...and ran slower than you
Mucky Tundra (2-Apr) : Who?
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Texas’ WR Isaiah Bond is scheduled to visit the Bills, Browns, Chiefs, Falcons, Packers and Titans starting next week.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Spotting ball isn't changing, only measuring distance is, Which wasn't the issue.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : The spotting of the ball IS the issue. Not the chain gang.
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