dingus
14 years ago

That's some seriously cold hearted shit.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Excuse me?

Have you read NOTHING of what I've said? I've stated clearly that I believe in universal healthcare -- just not government-run and -mandated universal healthcare. I've said more than once that my dream is to fly medical missions into disadvantaged areas -- provide healthcare for low cost or free to those who cannot afford it. That I give over 10% of my income to organizations who provide healthcare to those who cannot pay.

Cold-hearted shit? The cold hearted ones are those who shrug their shoulders, stand on the sidelines, and say it's the government's job. Now THAT'S cold hearted.

"dingus" wrote:



And at the same time you say health care is a luxury, that doesn't jibe with a want for universal health care.

I don't know you, I wouldn't presume to judge your day-to-day experience or form an opinion because I don't know what makes you tick but stating that health care is a luxury just doesn't sit well with me.

Governments are capable of doing great things for their constituents, it just depends on the character of the people elected. And that character is a direct reflection of the people voting them in, that said, we seem to be in a bit of a pickle these days.

No offense is intended Non, I hope you know that.
blank
Pack93z
14 years ago


As for the R&D argument, it's not that R&D costs so much that's the issue (although it is tremendously expensive). It's the fact that pharmaceutical companies have made the tactical decision to shoulder Americans with the entire cost of their R&D efforts. That is why the exact same drugs in Canada are approximately 10% the price of drugs in America: Canadians are not paying for the R&D costs. The pharmaceutical companies made this strategic decision as a way to improve their chances of penetrating foreign markets, since they knew people in other countries would never consent to pay the kinds of prices we as Americans are accustomed to paying.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Are you really trying to sell the nobility of the drug companies of this country? Seriously... one of the largest lobbyists on the hill?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_lobby 

According to the Center for Public Integrity, from January 2005 through June 2006 alone, the pharmaceutical industry spent approximately $182 million on Federal lobbying. The industry has 1,274 registered lobbyists in Washington D.C.



Maybe it isn't the R&D that is taxing their bottom line.. maybe it is the favor of the government to ensure that they continue to record staggering profits yearly.

Simply put, they aren't free of greed in the system. To claim otherwise is naive.

BTW.. you are advocating that we do nothing to a system that is spiraling out of cost control?

Again.. I think they attacked it poorly.. but to claim we should sit by and allow the greed in the system to fix the system? That is some profane logic if I have heard it.

And before you tell me how out of touch I am with system... try walking a day in my shoes where I have no choice but to seek medical care after decades of fighting it. Try looking at a day of 5 appointments for pre-op procedures and get the bill that totaled over 1800 dollars. I pay 389 a month in premiums and a 6000 deductible.. then watch a good portion rejected because of some nonsense in there coverage benefits.. and you wonder why I challenge the costs in the system?

Want the part that really burns my ass.. the only option I have available to me, after literally hundreds of phone calls.. go on Social Security.. then they will take care of it all. Seriously.. that is the answer I was given in the system more than 50% of the time. I don't need to be handed everything... but yes lets leave the system as is? Seriously.. while I don't like the government sticking their nose in.. one thing is certain, those in the system will not fix the system.. it is too profitable the way it is.

Yes I am pissed at the cost of health care... but as much as I hate seeking care.. I have no choice but to pay out of my ass.

Then listen to someone on a forum tell me that I don't deserve a better system, allow those in charge of the system to fix it.. well fuck me.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

All i can say on this is Fuck it 2012 hopefully the world will end because we will not have any rights soon. Maybe they should think of spending a few hundred Million dollars and get rid of all the illegals in this country. That would boost our economy back up. Bring our troops home and line them up on the border and anyone trespasses shoot them on the spot. They want in this country take the test and pay fricken taxes like the rest of us. But no we can't do that they get paid to goto school free medical treatment and welfare. Hell i know one guy that rotates his relatives into his country because he gets 5000 a month to do it. If your a foreigner you cant get tons of free money but if your an American you have to jump thru loops to get help.

So in closing i say welcome to the Anarchy States of America.

"dhazer" wrote:



Hey. Don't blame this shit on anarchists. The USA right now is the anti-anarchy. Anarchy = no archy = no government.

The better thing to do is bring those troops home and send them to DC and build a giant wall a la "Escape From New York". Except instead of locking criminals and other social unacceptables behind the wall, you lock ...well, Congress, everyone in the White House, the IRS, the Supreme Court, Homeland Security, INS, HHS, and the rest of the alphabet soup, 50 governors, and all state legislators.

I'd rather let in a gazillion poor people who don't speak English and have zero education and lock up all the politicians, than the other way around.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

Seriously? SS told you this? Or did a politician pandering to his base tell you that?

And unregulated (or more accurately, deregulated) capitalism has done such a bang up job so far, hasn't it?

"dingus" wrote:



Actually, compared to the historical alternatives it has.

I like to ask the following question whenever I can when I hear people ranting about the cost/quality of USA health care:

Which health care would you rather have:

1. American Colonies circa 1750.
2. USA circa 1800.
3. USA circa 1850.
4. USA circa 1900.
5. USA circa 1950.
6. USA circa 2000-2010.

To my mind that's one of the easiest choices in the world to make.

The average "poor" or "middle class" in America c. 2000-2010 lives better than the "poor" or "middle class" have ever lived before. Longer than the poor have ever lived before. With better childhood nutrition than ever before (as evidenced by the steady growth of population height).

The fact that I don't get health care equivalent to Brett Favre's or your average Congressman pisses me off, sure. Despite Jesus' teaching to the contrary, I still have envy issues, alas.

But when I'm looking carefully, I'm seeing the "best its ever been."

IMO, the *only* system that has systematically and in a sustained way improved health care is the market system.

Period.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

The people who bitch about the cost of healthcare in this country should be the very people advocating for LESS comprehensive insurance, not more. It's basic economics. Artificially inflated demand with a relatively inelastic supply drives up prices. It's unavoidable. Nothing in this healthcare plan will change that fundamental truth -- it will simply reduce supply in the end.

But the issue is too clouded in emotion -- on both sides -- for any but the most cynical among us to see the truth. The fact that people are actually saying the government HAS or NEEDS to do this is proof positive of that fact.

I really wish all these supposedly patriotic Americans would just be honest, confess they have no real interest in maintaining the constitutional system handed to us, and advocate for a constitutional convention, so we can write a constitution that more closely reflects the state of our society. I think the American public needs to be honest with itself and admit it's abandoned the core principles upon which this country was founded. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But all the lipservice given to the Constitution, particularly by self-proclaimed conservatives, when very few people actually believe what it stands for, is rather nauseating to me.

I'm glad I stopped considering myself a conservative years ago. I no longer suffer from the waves of cognitive dissonance that accompany the malady of being a conservative these days.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I agree. The only reason I fear the constitutional convention possibility is the "American or French model" choice I highlighted above. I look back to that 18th group of leaders and I'm amazed -- because the number of "constitutional conventions" that have followed the Madisonian example is a heckuva lot smaller than those who have followed the French one of 1789.

And most Americans have very simplistic notions of what happened in Philadelphia and, except for those who've had a largely useless version of "western civ" in college, have no clue at all about what happened in France.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Formo
14 years ago

You know what guys, since you have no idea what socialism and communism mean, how about you stop calling Obama and his government that k?

Or maybe you do know what the word means, but just have to call Obama that because your loverboy McCain lost.

What Obama is doing/has done is not what a communist/socialist would do.

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



I happen to know what it means, because I read the Communist Manifesto.

Funny, Obama's stances are pretty damn close to communism. So, uhh.. Yes, I do know what it means, and it's insulting to throw out generalizations that I'm just saying it because of a certain conservative mindset happens to say it too. Besides, I don't call it communism, but Obamunism. Same principle, though.

"10 point program of Communism

1. Abolition of property in land and of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production."

The three bolded points are already in motion. The government bailing out the banks and GM gives them power over both. The tax thing is already a given.

I'm sure there's more that I'm unaware of or forgot.

Anyway, I digress. I pretty much ignore the thoughts and ideas of people not living in this country, not because you are bad people.. but your thoughts and ideas are slanted towards what you think is best for America. Which is a bit out of wack, considering you don't have to live here to experience said changes. If we become like every other country in Europe.. WTF was the point of becoming our own nation 300+ years ago?!

"Formo" wrote:



Good post, but I never tried to say what's best for your country. I only pointed out Obama is not a communist. 3 out of 10 doesn't mean you are a communist, it's not like the US is the only country where those points stand. Things get fucked up when, say points 1, 3 and 8 start to get used. The amount your american liberties have been taken away from you are very limited in comparison to what it would be if you had a communist government.

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



3 out of 10 isn't bad.. But 2 of which have been started in recent years. I actually consider Obama and his likes socialists.. But calling him a communist stirs the pot more, and gets the uninformed thinking (well, the smart ones).

Either way, it's a new direction for this country, and I don't like it. And neither should every other red blooded American, IMHO. Again, I beg the question.. What was the point of claiming our independence from Europe if we become like every other European nation?
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Rockmolder
14 years ago

You know what guys, since you have no idea what socialism and communism mean, how about you stop calling Obama and his government that k?

Or maybe you do know what the word means, but just have to call Obama that because your loverboy McCain lost.

What Obama is doing/has done is not what a communist/socialist would do.

"Formo" wrote:



I happen to know what it means, because I read the Communist Manifesto.

Funny, Obama's stances are pretty damn close to communism. So, uhh.. Yes, I do know what it means, and it's insulting to throw out generalizations that I'm just saying it because of a certain conservative mindset happens to say it too. Besides, I don't call it communism, but Obamunism. Same principle, though.

"10 point program of Communism

1. Abolition of property in land and of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production."

The three bolded points are already in motion. The government bailing out the banks and GM gives them power over both. The tax thing is already a given.

I'm sure there's more that I'm unaware of or forgot.

Anyway, I digress. I pretty much ignore the thoughts and ideas of people not living in this country, not because you are bad people.. but your thoughts and ideas are slanted towards what you think is best for America. Which is a bit out of wack, considering you don't have to live here to experience said changes. If we become like every other country in Europe.. WTF was the point of becoming our own nation 300+ years ago?!

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



Good post, but I never tried to say what's best for your country. I only pointed out Obama is not a communist. 3 out of 10 doesn't mean you are a communist, it's not like the US is the only country where those points stand. Things get fucked up when, say points 1, 3 and 8 start to get used. The amount your american liberties have been taken away from you are very limited in comparison to what it would be if you had a communist government.

"Formo" wrote:



3 out of 10 isn't bad.. But 2 of which have been started in recent years. I actually consider Obama and his likes socialists.. But calling him a communist stirs the pot more, and gets the uninformed thinking (well, the smart ones).

Either way, it's a new direction for this country, and I don't like it. And neither should every other red blooded American, IMHO. Again, I beg the question.. What was the point of claiming our independence from Europe if we become like every other European nation?

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



I know. The 1776 healthcare system was way too socialistic for Washington's taste. Every man for himself, because it's the land of the fucking free.

I don't know the exact number, but I do know that more than 50% of civilized, 1st world countries use a progressive tax system.

I know that a lot take care of the public transportation, did that untill shortly, or have plans for getting it back.

Anyway, like Finland said, you're in trouble if number 1, 3 and 8 will become reality in the states.

Aristocracy wasn't all bad. It had some positives. Just like communism had some things that enriched civilization. I don't know why everyone gets so crazy about freedom whenever one law gets taken into effect which has socialistic roots. If you want total freedom, total anarchy, go live on an island with indigenous tribes. That's about how far civilizations come without any kind of leadership, laws and government of whatever type.
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I fail to see how this is a new direction for our country. Ever since the American public kicked Hoover out of office, they have believed it was the federal government's job to fix their problems. President Roosevelt gave us the New Deal, Social Security, and unemployment insurance (which originated in Wisconsin in 1932). President Eisenhower gave us the Small Business Association in 1953. President Johnson gave us the Great Society, including Medicare and Medicaid, in 1965, with former President Harry Truman enrolled as the first beneficiary. He also gave us federal student loans. President Richard Nixon passed sweeping economic restrictions, including price controls. President Clinton tried to pass a healthcare reform bill.

This is nothing new. Americans have been bellying up to the federal teat for decades.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

The 1776 healthcare system was way too socialistic for Washington's taste.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



This statement makes no logical sense whatsoever. There was no healthcare system back in 1776. Healthcare was provided by mothers and fathers, herbalists and midwives, a few crudely trained doctors who made house calls, if you were lucky enough to be within walking or riding distance. Hospitals, if they existed at all, were places you went to die, not to get well. Healthcare wasn't considered a "right." You did what you could to get people back on their feet and you hoped for the best.

Which is pretty much what we do to this day. Every time you walk into a doctor's office, you are a guinea pig, a training aid, an experiment. And that is a fact.
UserPostedImage
vikesrule
14 years ago

I actually consider Obama and his likes socialists.. But calling him a communist stirs the pot more, and gets the uninformed thinking (well, the smart ones).

"Formo" wrote:



Interestingly ironic comment from someone that worships at the Rush Limbaugh alter of inane rhetoric and blowhard philosophy.

I'm guessing you lust after Ann Coulter as well.
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