Obama Health Care Calculator· Page 7

DakotaT
Select Member

14 years ago

Seriously? SS told you this? Or did a politician pandering to his base tell you that?

And unregulated (or more accurately, deregulated) capitalism has done such a bang up job so far, hasn't it?

"Formo" wrote:

+1 Dingus

Capitalism works really well for those fortunate to be born with the right bloodline and an above average IQ. For the rest Capitalism makes for one tough row to hoe. I want a hibred system myself.

And for those of you that believe social problems should be dealt with outside of government by humanism, well there is good news, you still can contribute. But because there are so few humanists doing anything, the governmnet has to step in.

"DakotaT" wrote:

And since I'm on a roll.. might as well address you.. ya frackin' socialistic hell hound.

What economic style made America so great to live in in the early 1900s? Why change it? Ever thought that the problem does NOT lie in the system, but the ones running the system?

"dingus" wrote:

For your information dipshit :icon_smile: , I'm not socialist, I am very much a conservative Republican. But where I differ from you and those like you is that I try to be a real Christian and have some compassion for those people with much less than I have. I'm not gonna spit and walk by becasue maybe, just maybe they were dealt a much worse than I.

I support my government even though I may not agree with everything they are doing. I'm going to file my taxes and write a big check, worth at least three mortgages. I still feel privileged to be an American.

There are always those Kaczinsky cabins in the mountains of Montana for all of you so fed up with things. Me, well put my tax dollars to good use fuckers, cause there's a lot of needing people out there.

Nonstopdrivel
Preferred Member

14 years ago

#62

I try to be a real Christian and have some compassion for those people with much less than I have.

"DakotaT" wrote:

The good Samaritan cleaned and bandaged the man's wounds himself, put the man on his own donkey, and took him to a private inn, where he paid the innkeeper to care for him. He didn't write a check to King Herod and ask that the state take care of the guy.

dingus
Member

14 years ago

#63

Back in 91 I had an issue with a lung that just didn't want to stay inflated. It collapsed 3 X and I had a procedure done in the ER all 3 X. I eventually needed major surgery to correct the problem. I was in the hospital for 3 days, private room. I had what was considered, at that time, a shitty HMO plan. Back then people were lamenting the direction the health care industry was going, citing the push for HMO's and other insurance company plans as the cause for these concerns.

I never paid a dime for ANY of the care I received for my bum lung. I was a 23 yr old who had health insurance provided to me by an independent record store chain I worked for. (Northern Lights Music, 7th & Hennepin, Formo) This will probably never happen again, but due to this bill there is a small chance that some sort of coverage will be available to people employed by small business. My current employer, also a small business owner, can't afford to offer insurance to her employees because it is too cost prohibitive for her to do so these days. Maybe now she can.

What has changed so much in 19 yrs that basic health care is unattainable for middle class - lower middle class & poor people?

What's wrong with leveling, or trying to level, the playing field a bit?

And Nonstop-
I don't buy the R&D costs so much BS. More like we need to run a few thousand more "tell your doctor you need $10 per boner pills" ads during football on Sunday. Don't recall to many major drug companies spending millions of dollars on advertising specialized prescription medicines multiple times daily on 100's of cable channels back in the day. It used to be, you went to the doctor, he figured out what was wrong and prescribed something for it if need be. Now it's "tell your doctor". Back then, you were more likely to get Compound W, Bayer aspirin and Gold Bond Medicated Powder spots.

This bill does nothing to address many problems that are inherent in the health care system today, but, as Pack93z said "at least they are trying to do something for the common American that can't break into the yuppie country club that our government has become"
personally I'd change the word government to society, but that just me of little faith.

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dingus
Member

14 years ago

#64

I try to be a real Christian and have some compassion for those people with much less than I have.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:

"DakotaT" wrote:

See. I've been trying to ignore this stuff but this is the second reply you've posted that makes me hope I'm never this cold. The first was that spew about health care being a luxury. That's some seriously cold hearted shit.

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Nonstopdrivel
Preferred Member

14 years ago

#65

Some of the worst disasters in human history have been caused by people "just trying to do something" without having a solid understanding of the situation. I will never accept that "just doing something" is automatically better than doing nothing. Sometimes the wisest decision one makes is the decision to do nothing. I'm not saying that necessarily applies to this situation -- I'm just objecting to the argument in general.

As for the R&D argument, it's not that R&D costs so much that's the issue (although it is tremendously expensive). It's the fact that pharmaceutical companies have made the tactical decision to shoulder Americans with the entire cost of their R&D efforts. That is why the exact same drugs in Canada are approximately 10% the price of drugs in America: Canadians are not paying for the R&D costs. The pharmaceutical companies made this strategic decision as a way to improve their chances of penetrating foreign markets, since they knew people in other countries would never consent to pay the kinds of prices we as Americans are accustomed to paying.

If the R&D costs were distributed equally across all markets, pharmaceuticals wouldn't be so expensive.

The other issue is if people would start improving their lifestyles, we wouldn't need so many pharmaceuticals. All the sob stories notwithstanding, the overwhelming majority of medical expenses in this country go to treat preventable diseases -- diseases of lifestyle. Heart disease, lung cancer, diabetes, to name only a few.

Nonstopdrivel
Preferred Member

14 years ago

#66

That's some seriously cold hearted shit.

"dingus" wrote:

Excuse me?

Have you read NOTHING of what I've said? I've stated clearly that I believe in universal healthcare -- just not government-run and -mandated universal healthcare. I've said more than once that my dream is to fly medical missions into disadvantaged areas -- provide healthcare for low cost or free to those who cannot afford it. That I give over 10% of my income to organizations who provide healthcare to those who cannot pay.

Cold-hearted shit? The cold hearted ones are those who shrug their shoulders, stand on the sidelines, and say it's the government's job. Now THAT'S cold hearted.

DakotaT
Select Member

14 years ago

#67

I try to be a real Christian and have some compassion for those people with much less than I have.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:

"DakotaT" wrote:

The good Samaratin works 80 hours a week and has 3 small children. He trusts King Herod to do the right thing cause he's tired. :icon_smile:

I'm not perfect, but I'm not joining any teabagging party any time soon, unless Mrs. Dakota want's to try some in private. And I won't be spitting on the homeless man on my way to the front pew of the church. I like the view from the back better.

Nonstopdrivel
Preferred Member

14 years ago

#68

I was able to find an article confirming that indeed, a 10% tanning tax was substituted for the 5% Botox tax.

'Botax' Out, 'Tan Tax' In: Health Care Bill Offers a Lesson in Lobbying
By MELLY ALAZRAKI
Posted 3:39 PM 12/22/09

As the health care bill passed another hurdle early Tuesday morning with three more votes in the Senate, Botox maker Allergan Inc. (AGN) no doubt breathed yet another sigh of relief. Aiming to pass the bill before Christmas, legislators refrained from taxing elective cosmetic procedures, and instead opted for a tax on tanning salons.

The legislation includes taxes and other levies on various industries to fund the $871 billion bill. The Botax, as it has been nicknamed, was going to be a 5% tax on such things as Botox injections to smooth wrinkles, breast implants -- another Allergan product -- face-lifts and other elective cosmetic procedures. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid dropped that plan, however. Instead, it was replaced with a 10% tax on indoor tanning services.

Some may wonder: Why tax one and not the other? Aren't both essentially elective cosmetic procedures? Moreover, according to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, the tanning tax would raise an estimated $2.7 billion over 10 years, while the cosmetic surgery tax had been projected to raise over $5 billion.

Tanning Salons Made an Easier Target

It seems it mostly came down to lobbying muscle. While the Botax drew fierce opposition from Allergan, plastic surgeons, and the medical community in general, the Indoor Tanning Association seemed to lack the necessary lobbying muscle.

Allergan CEO David Pyott personally raised objections to the tax with lawmakers, according to Reuters, and the company launched a website and Facebook page to stir up public opposition to it. And Allergan wasn't alone. The company's efforts were supported and complemented by heavy lobbying from plastic surgeons and the medical community in general. They argued the Botax would unfairly hit middle-class, working women who make up a large portion of their patients.

Legislators seemed to face a tough decision: Risk losing the doctors' crucial support for the bill or find that funding elsewhere. IT was at this point that doctors came to the rescue, as the American Academy of Dermatology Association suggested the tan tax. Of course, it was accompanied by warnings from the Food and Drug Administration and from the National Cancer Institute about cancer risks from tanning beds' ultraviolet rays. No sooner than the Botax was dropped, the American Medical Association announced its support for the Senate bill.

It certainly seems that tanning salons were an easier target. The Indoor Tanning Association estimates that some 20,000 salons operate in the U.S., most of them small businesses with over 50% female ownership (compared to 25% in other businesses). The tax will hurt an industry already suffering from the recession, it claims. And as for the cancer risk, the association claims moderate tanning can have health benefit of vitamin D production. Indeed, phototherapy performed by a medical professional wouldn't be taxed.

The Senate is aiming for a final vote on the bill by Christmas Eve. The measure will then need to be reconciled with the House's bill, which will be challenging in itself. It may be hard to find a common language on several issues, including abortion, where major divisions exist between House and Senate Democrats.

Packers_Finland
Registered

14 years ago

#69

You know what guys, since you have no idea what socialism and communism mean, how about you stop calling Obama and his government that k?

Or maybe you do know what the word means, but just have to call Obama that because your loverboy McCain lost.

What Obama is doing/has done is not what a communist/socialist would do.

"Formo" wrote:

I happen to know what it means, because I read the Communist Manifesto.

Funny, Obama's stances are pretty damn close to communism. So, uhh.. Yes, I do know what it means, and it's insulting to throw out generalizations that I'm just saying it because of a certain conservative mindset happens to say it too. Besides, I don't call it communism, but Obamunism. Same principle, though.

"10 point program of Communism

1. Abolition of property in land and of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production."

The three bolded points are already in motion. The government bailing out the banks and GM gives them power over both. The tax thing is already a given.

I'm sure there's more that I'm unaware of or forgot.

Anyway, I digress. I pretty much ignore the thoughts and ideas of people not living in this country, not because you are bad people.. but your thoughts and ideas are slanted towards what you think is best for America. Which is a bit out of wack, considering you don't have to live here to experience said changes. If we become like every other country in Europe.. WTF was the point of becoming our own nation 300+ years ago?!

"Packers_Finland" wrote:

Good post, but I never tried to say what's best for your country. I only pointed out Obama is not a communist. 3 out of 10 doesn't mean you are a communist, it's not like the US is the only country where those points stand. Things get fucked up when, say points 1, 3 and 8 start to get used. The amount your american liberties have been taken away from you are very limited in comparison to what it would be if you had a communist government.

This is a placeholder

4PackGirl
Registered

14 years ago

#70

thank you, fin.

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