Once again you evade my point, which is that this phone call could have been a precursor to a terrorism investigation, which could have subsequently lead to indefinite detention, torture, etc. So your question is irrelevant here.



I really don't mean to be insulting, but I lose patience when you evade every point that I make, set up strawmen, and then declare victory over my arguments, which you haven't even addressed. I will try to be more cordial and respectful in the future, but I would appreciate it that if you're going to answer my posts, you do me the courtesy of addressing my arguments, which I spend a lot of time and thought on.



True, but irrelevant. More to the point is that since 2001, approximately 3,000 Americans have died in acts of terrorism, while approximately 375,000 people have died in auto accidents. That doesn't even consider the 600,000 people who die every year of heart disease, for example. You justify investigating terrorism with torture, yet the chances of being a victim of terrorism are minuscule.



I see no need for torture. All it does is unnecessarily polarize world opinion against us, and for what gain? We have no idea -- none whatsoever -- that any information we obtain through torture is valuable. I know if I were being tortured, I'd tell my captors whatever bullshit would make them happy. That doesn't mean it would be truthful. I couldn't care less about the truth, as long as they stopped inflicting pain on me.



Granted, but I would like actual reasoned responses to my arguments too.



Or more probably it just perpetuates the cycle of anger that makes another attack more likely.

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I cherish liberty too much to sacrifice it for safety. Considering I'm willing to put my wife and children in a car everyday, a mode of transportation that kills over 40,000 Americans every year, I think I am willing to take the risk that not torturing a terrorism suspect could result in their death. So yes, I'd choose not torturing the suspect, since that means if an outspoken critic of our government like myself ever gets investigated, I would not get tortured either.

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Your point that it COULD happen, when it hasn't happened to an American citizen yet is what i find hard to see as a good argument on your side.

Yes, it COULD happen. You COULD get hit by lightening, too.

You could go as far as saying "I won't go outside anymore, cause i COULD get hit by a car, or COULD slip, fall, and hit my head, or COULD get mugged by a bad guy.
Yes, ALL of those things COULD happen. In fact, there's a better chance of one of those happening then for you to be hauled in and tortured for being suspected of terrorism.
Yet you laugh at me and call me emotional when i say we COULD get attacked by people from Iran.
I'd say you are working on emotion when it comes to your fear of being tortured by OUR side.
Unless that is, you DO have a reason to fear it that you haven't told us about.

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I have never laughed at anyone for thinking we could be attacked by Iran. Of course we could be. I also think it's necessary to rationally evaluate risks. I just don't think the risk of an attack from Iran is big enough to justify an incursion into a sovereign country that will put the lives of thousands of our young men and women at risk. Iran is much more of a regional than a global threat. But since these Middle Eastern countries have been provoking each other for millennia, I think they, not we, should bear the brunt of their inability to get along.

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I wish they WOULD all get along. But we both know that will never happen. They act like children. who need a good spanking.
And with the strong possibility that someone might try to bomb a plane, can you understand WHY they questioned Trippster's friend?
I would think by now that everyone should realize that's NOT something you joke about.

I also don't blame the people on the planes for 9/11. Before that day, all hijackers did it to GET something. Prisoners out of prison, money, a reason.
I don't think they thought that anyone was crazy enough to kill themselves just for their own "glory". If something like that happened now, i bet the people on the plane WOULD fight back, as they would know there was a good chance they would die if they didn't.

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But this same thing plagues us here having a simple discussion.. it has been applied time and time again that if I am not full blown republican, I am ultra left winged id git..

For what ever reason politics stirs the emotions strongly.. and clouds peoples interpretation of what is actually being stated..

Every election I try to weight each candidate independently, unbiasedly based on party association.. also taking into account the trails of the country and my feelings on what direction we should go and need.

IMO, hitching yourself to a party is impractical, yet I try very diligently to avoid slamming followers of either..

But in the end of these discussions it usually turns a little bitter and the anger levels increase.. why exactly?

Just because we think differently.. really.

Most of us think differently on all types of subjects, but when they turn political or religious it gets testy.

And we expect these people in authority to not become embattled?

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I never said you were a "lefty" Shawn.
And i'm pretty sure that people have labeled me a "crazy right winger". I can't stop the label. And i also judge the candidates on what they believe.
So far, other then Joe Lieberman, I haven't found a democrat i consistently agree with.
And i don't automatically agree with all republicans, either. But more of them are closer to my beliefs then most dems.
When people read what someone writes, they will label them. That's just the way it is. I KNOW that there are some that believe as i do, but won't post for fear of being attacked. I know cause some have written to me as much.
It's a shame too, as they should never feel that they can't voice their opinion. I did the same thing when i was younger, and let people walk all over me. I was afraid to voice my opinion. Now, i figure "What the heck." If people want to hate me for my beliefs, what can i do? I'm not going to give up what i believe just to try to get someone to like me.
Then again, i don't say what i say to purposely hurt anyone's feelings.

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I know bud.. using it as an example running through the comments.. some are pretty slanted in their context in a written form.. which is half the issue here.. sometimes we don't frame our words in the proper context that is crystal clear.. and can't be misinterpreted..

Many times, I think that is a fundamental issue at all levels of government.. we can't get past the party label.

You just wonder how much nonsense that causes.... what a gigantic waste.

But I see it happening at this level.. imagine the bitching behind close doors at the senate and house level.

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I wish we could all sit face to face and TALK.
Like you said, it's hard to fully grasp what someone is saying or exact meaning when you are just reading words that are typed.

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Just Right. As opposed to Wrong. 😛

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