Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

You can't be a great QB until you sustain it or at least win a playoff game.

"porky88" wrote:



This argument only holds water if it applies to other positions on the field as well. Otherwise it's simply a case of special pleading. By this logic, Barry Sanders wasn't a great running back because the Lions never went anywhere during his tenure in Detroit. By this logic, too, Dan Marino wasn't a great quarterback because he disappeared in the playoffs  so often. Well, if that is so, then it's not that great a leap to argue that Brett Favre wasn't a great quarterback, considering his postseason record.

Only one team wins a championship every year. I can't buy the argument that great players only exist on playoff-winning teams. By that logic, Jason Hanson is one of the worst kickers in history.
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porky88
14 years ago

You can't be a great QB until you sustain it or at least win a playoff game.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



This argument only holds water if it applies to other positions on the field as well. Otherwise it's simply a case of special pleading. By this logic, Barry Sanders wasn't a great running back because the Lions never went anywhere during his tenure in Detroit. By this logic, too, Dan Marino wasn't a great quarterback because he disappeared in the playoffs  so often. Well, if that is so, then it's not that great a leap to argue that Brett Favre wasn't a great quarterback, considering his postseason record.

Only one team wins a championship every year. I can't buy the argument that great players only exist on playoff-winning teams. By that logic, Jason Hanson is one of the worst kickers in history.

"porky88" wrote:



I don't believe evaluating football players is math. 1 +1 = 2 every time in math, but in football, you have exceptions.

My arguement is the difference between very good and great is a playoff win. At least at this stage in Rodgers' career. Never said wins nor did I say Super Bowl. Sanders and Marino have won in the playoffs before. I will say, again, there are always exceptions to the rule, especially in football. By logic if every player was as equaled value as his teammate, everyone would make the same amount of money. That's just not the case for obvious reasons. Some players are clearly more important.

Sanders and Marino are exceptions. Rodgers? Too early to tell. I have never seen him play a playoff game. I saw him play in Tampa Bay twice. He hasn't been great there. Who's to say he won't lay an egg in the playoffs? I simply don't know right now. I don't think he will, but I wouldn't take anything off the table in football. That's why I say he's very good and not great. I'll listen to my eyes rather than some piece of paper.
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that Rodgers is or is not elite. He's a second-year starter -- his career could be long and fruitful, or it could have a meteoric end. I'm merely objecting to the use of postseason wins as a metric of individual player greatness. After all, the backups on the Steelers roster have rings, too, but no one would argue they're better than Rodgers. I hope.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that Rodgers is or is not elite. He's a second-year starter -- his career could be long and fruitful, or it could have a meteoric end. I'm merely objecting to the use of postseason wins as a metric of individual player greatness. After all, the backups on the Steelers roster have rings, too, but no one would argue they're better than Rodgers. I hope.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I have Rodgers ranked #5 in 2009 after 11 games. Means nothing, I know, until the post season.

I hate the word "great" as I believe it's overused and great should really mean Hall of Fame. Right now, our Hall of Fame QBs are Favre, Brady, and P Manning. A few others active today will make it (Kurt Warner immediately comes to mind) and a few more will be nominated.

We can't honestly evaluate Rodgers' career until it's much older. It's his second freaking year.

"Elite" however is a word that separates players. We have elite QBs (Favre, Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers), then solid, then average, then it doesn't matter because when they're below average, it's meaningless.

Elite is a yearly word. For example, Ahman Green was elite in 2003. He's not elite today. Get it?

Alex Smith, I've heard every excuse in the book for him. I'm in San Franfreakingcisco. I heard it all. No, I'm tired of them and not willing to let him off the hook. He's had his chances. He's blown them.

Alex Smith can't walk in Aaron Rodgers shoes. He can't do it. Rodgers is clearly better and would be better if Smith was drafted as a Packer and Rodgers as a 49er.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I think it's time for a reductio ad absurdum argument.

For those of you who have the likes of Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger ranked over Aaron Rodgers because they have rings, I have a question. If a quarterback were to fail to throw a touchdown pass the entire season, yet still manage to eke out a Super Bowl victory, would he be a better quarterback than one who had thrown 35 touchdowns but failed to make the playoffs?

Can you truly be consistent in your argument if you answer no?
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zombieslayer
14 years ago
I'll take it a step further. Anyone who says Eli Manning or Big Ben are better QBs than Drew Brees needs to be slapped upside their head.
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
porky88
14 years ago
I'd take Ben over Rodgers right now. Just like I think John Elway is a better player than Dan Marino. Marino had much better numbers, but Elway to me, was one of the greatest ever.

The arguement that Ben had nothing to do with Pittsburgh's Super Bowls is wrong quite frankly. The first Super Bowl he was terrible in. No doubt about it, but he also was very good up in Denver in the AFC Championship that year. Actually, near flawless. I'm not sure Pittsburgh wins without Ben that year. I don't think they do. To ignore the AFC Title game is nitpicking.

Roethlisberger isn't one of the best QBs in football because he puts up big time fantasy numbers every year. He is because he plays up to the moment. Yes, he can play down to the moment as well, but there is something to be said about a player or person that rises to the occasion.

Rodgers hasn't done that yet. Doesn't mean he won't, but until he does, I'm not taking him over Ben.

As far as Eli Manning goes. He outplayed Tony Romo, Brett Favre, and Tom Brady in the postseason. Since then, he's gone down hill and it's looking like he had a fluke run. I think Rodgers surpassed him based on watching the two players play the game. Again, I use my eyes to make my decisions. The statbook is just there to offer a little guidance.
Rockmolder
14 years ago
It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.
zombieslayer
14 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



+1
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
porky88
14 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



Again, those stats are all cute, but they're stats. They're there for guidance, but I'm not making a final decision when I can watch the two players play and come to a final conclusion using my eyes. If you believe Rodgers, who has never played in the postseason yet is better than Ben, then that's obviously your view. It's based solely on stats though which I don't believe is end all or tell all. The best stats don't always = championships. They help, but again, nothing is ever constant. Football is and never will be that easy.

Players that play well on the big stage like a Favre, Brady, Manning, Brees (tonight) and yes, a Ben Roethlisberger have that extra "something" that separates them from a player like a Matt Schaub.

Aaron Brooks in 2002 and 2003 averaged 25 touchdowns, 3,500-plus yards. Keep in mind, I believe it was in this exact same offense. Is he on a similar level as say Aaron Rodgers though? Of course not because of things that are shown when they play. A few things worth noting are: Rodgers reads defenses better, makes better decisions, and I think he's a better leader. On the bookend of those seasons, Brooks had some nice numbers as well. That was it though.

Ben only has topped those numbers in one season, but so has Rodgers. You really think Brooks is a better QB than Ben Roethlisberger? That's what the numbers say, but again, numbers are never bulletproof. Rodgers is only in his second year and will have his second solid season. In fact, he's on pace to have an amazing season.

Roetherlisger had 32 touchdowns, 11 INTs, over 3,000 yards and completed 65% of his passes. His QB rating was 104.1. His team won ten games. This was in 2007. He's on pace to throw over 4,000 yards this season and 25 touchdown passes. Only 15 INTs which isn't that bad. If he keeps up this pace, that's his second "stat" year for you to wrap your head around. Ironically, the same as Rodgers.

Ben is only 27 which is two years older than Rodgers. There is still along ways to go for both of them.

It's almost like an insult in your view that someone would put Ben ahead of Rodgers. I'm not saying Ben is a much better QB than Rodgers or that it's not close. I think it is.
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