Zero2Cool
14 years ago

What's frustrating about that video is the most interesting angle on the catch, our view of Johnson is blocked. I'll study this in more depth after school tonight, but it sure looks to me not that the ball is knocked out but that Johnson deliberately opens his hand, thereby releasing the ball.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



When you release something out of your hand, your hand expands, not collapses at air when the object is dislodged. Really, this isn't that complicated as you want it to be.

By the rule, its not a catch.

The depth of the rule is stupid, in my opinion. I feel he clearly had two feet, an ass and possession of the ball. When his knee and/or ass hit the ground with possession established, it should be a touchdown/catch.

There's just no denying, from all the angles I've seen, the ball was knocked out of Calvins hand by the ground.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago

, but it sure looks to me not that the ball is knocked out but that Johnson deliberately opens his hand, thereby releasing the ball.

"longtimefan" wrote:



I think it is more the impact of the ball hitting the turf hard that makes his hand involuntary squeeze which made the ball be released..

I am not sure squeeze is the right word I am looking for though.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



You're saying he squeezed the ball tighter to use the ball as a prop to propel himself back onto his feet? I wouldn't argue that, except for what I seen in the video, which was the momentum of falling caused his arm to flail out and when he hit the ground he was using the hand with the ball to brace himself.

I'll have to watch the video again, but gosh, I don't know. It just looks so clear to me that the ground knocked the ball out of his hand while he turned while hitting the ground.
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longtimefan
14 years ago
Yup the ground caused it...Will never deny that, but watch he hand as it hits the ground..

The fingers do something odd like a squeeze, again the impact of hitting the ground makes his fingers do that...

But the ground did cause that to happen
longtimefan
14 years ago
watching it again, appears he is squeezing it very hard and when the impact hits it makes his fingers slip off
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
If Calvin would have just tucked it in to his chest, we wouldn't be talking about this! LoL


Thing is, players knew of this and were aware of it, so some of the blame falls on him for not making sure he held the ball through the "process" of the catch.

I still don't like the rule though.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
But that's my point. I think it's dumb that the only thing separating this non-catch from a catch is the fact it came in contact with the ground. Had Johnson tucked the ball to his chest and the ball fallen out after he struck the ground, it would have been called a catch, as replays from other games have shown. That's absurd.
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Pack93z
14 years ago
I think this speaks volumes to the rule.. a catch has always been two feet down with possession. One butt cheek was equal to two feet.. Johnson had both with the ball clearly in control.

It was a catch.


Mike Pereira says the Calvin Johnson rule "is certainly suspect"
Posted by Mike Florio on September 14, 2010 12:28 PM ET

Former NFL V.P. of officiating Mike Pereira exhibited candor during his time as a league employee. Now that he's a former league employee (and current employee of FOX), he's even more candid.

As to the rule that has come to be known as (at least here) as the Calvin Johnson rule, Pereira talked at length about the situation with Dan Patrick on Tuesday, and Pereira admitted that "the rule is certainly suspect." Pereira also said that the ruling that robbed the Lions of a win "doesn't pass the smell test," but that Pereira's "not sure how to make it smell better."

Pereira also acknowledged that, even though last year's experiences with the rules (including application of the technically non-existent "second act" exception to award the Saints a key two-pointer in the Super Bowl) did not prompt a change to the rule, momentum could build for a revision or clarification or explanation in the offseason.

"This is gonna happen 15 more time this year," Pereira said. "Maybe this play on top of the big play last year -- maybe this tips the scale." Though he expressed concern that it may be too difficult to improve a complicated rule, he recognized that "50 guys in a bar" would likely conclude the Johnson play should have been ruled a touchdown.

We know it won't be an easy fix. For starters, though, the league needs to either kill or codify the "second act" exception. It's currently not in the rules, and as a result we think that some of the part-time officials charged with applying the rules aren't sure when to look for a second act -- and what a second act exactly is.

"ProFootballTalk" wrote:


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Formo
14 years ago
Exactly.. Where is the line for the 'second act'? How does one define that line? To me, Calvin's 'second act' was falling to his ass. Thus the correct call being a TD.

If they make a change to the rule and keep the 'second act' part.. they have to define, clearly, what the second act is. 2 feet and clear possession of the ball, IMO, marks the end of the 'catching act'.
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mi_keys
14 years ago
The ground caused it to pop out. There's no doubting that.

Here is what is bothering me the more I think about this. The reason the ground caused it to pop out is because he tried to use his right hand to catch/push himself back up. He's not really falling anymore because his butt has already hit, he's caught himself with his left hand, and it looks like he's trying to get back up. Is getting up not a second act? To me that's a judgment and contrary to the whole black and white argument.

Furthermore, let's say it is black and white. A black and white rule that is applied correctly to the letter of the law but that is contrary to the spirit of the game is not a good rule. Black and white is not inherently good. It's good IF it can consistently produce the correct outcome within the spirit of the game.

Also, why is going to ground so relevant in whether or not something is a catch? If someone is jumped on by a defender as they're catching the ball, take three steps and fall to the ground, losing the ball when they hit the ground, it is incomplete. If the same scenario happens but instead of going to the ground the defender punches the ball out of the receivers arms and the receiver stays upright it's a catch and fumble. Why does it matter what knocked the ball out if the receiver held onto the ball just as long and took as many steps?
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