Dexter_Sinister
14 years ago
Sounds like a second half package to me. Shut down the run and get them thinking pass, then shut down the pass.

The problem with using it on the Vikings is they catch pretty well out of the base with AP and Shank. I wouldn't want that package in when they are running out of their base. I think we are better off hitting them with a balanced D that can take care of controlling AP without sacrificing coverage. Let him get 100 yards but don't let him break one big. I think we can do that.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Rockmolder
14 years ago

Sounds like a second half package to me. Shut down the run and get them thinking pass, then shut down the pass.

The problem with using it on the Vikings is they catch pretty well out of the base with AP and Shank. I wouldn't want that package in when they are running out of their base. I think we are better off hitting them with a balanced D that can take care of controlling AP without sacrificing coverage. Let him get 100 yards but don't let him break one big. I think we can do that.

"Dexter_Sinister" wrote:



Sacrificing coverage? That personel group is perfect to rotect against the pass.

Bishop's better than Hawk in coverage, although he's not a big guy who takes on blockers in the running game. Chillar is our best coverage LB. There's a reason why he plays safety in the "Big Okie" package and why he's nearly the only LB who we want one on one against TEs.

AP showed some decent hands last year, but he's no Brian Westbrook. Or even a Chester Taylor.

I have a lot of respect for the Vikes roster and I actually think it's better than ours if Favre gets back, but Shiancoe is one of the most overrated guys I know.

He was 16th in yards, 11th in catches and 20th in yards per game. The only thing he really had going for him was his great amount of TD catches, which ranked 2nd.

But Havner ranked 17th and I don't want to call him the 17th best at his position.

I still see a lot of Donald Lee in Visante Shiancoe.

You can make a lot of TEs look really good when you have a veteran QB who likes to throw it to his TE.

Lee's 2007 numbers are nearly the same as Visante's, except for the amount of TD catches.

Now I'm not saying that Shiancoe isn't a good TE. A lot of teams would love to have him as their starter, but I can come up with 10-15 who are better.

I think his production will take a sharp decline as soon as Favre walks away.
Dexter_Sinister
14 years ago
I was not saying that package sacrifices in coverage. I was saying it sacrifices against the run. That is why I wouldn't put it up against their base. I wouldn't want to have AP running against them. I went on to add that a balanced D would be the best way to defeat the Vikings.

I also said that I think we can do it. If we had a healthy O-line and healthy safeties, we would have beaten them last year. Because I think we are better than they are. I thought we were last year but we had too many injuries while they didn't and we were new in the 3-4.

I was trying to point out that the Vikings would probably keep the same personnel in and throw out of the base. AP got a lot of catches last year and Shank is fairly competent. With BFer throwing and their top two receivers, they are pretty good throwing out of their base.

I probably could have broken that up a little more clearly last time.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Rockmolder
14 years ago

I was not saying that package sacrifices in coverage. I was saying it sacrifices against the run. That is why I wouldn't put it up against their base. I wouldn't want to have AP running against them. I went on to add that a balanced D would be the best way to defeat the Vikings.

I also said that I think we can do it. If we had a healthy O-line and healthy safeties, we would have beaten them last year. Because I think we are better than they are. I thought we were last year but we had too many injuries while they didn't and we were new in the 3-4.

I was trying to point out that the Vikings would probably keep the same personnel in and throw out of the base. AP got a lot of catches last year and Shank is fairly competent. With BFer throwing and their top two receivers, they are pretty good throwing out of their base.

I probably could have broken that up a little more clearly last time.

"Dexter_Sinister" wrote:



Whoops, sorry.

I'm not that scared of teams that can run the ball. You want to stop the pass first and the run second. I know, play-action and all, and you don't want to have teams run rampid on your defense, but I'd rather have the nr. 1 pass defense and nr. 10 rush defense than the other way around. Being very good against the run didn't do us that much good last year.

Or the Vikings the 2 or 3 years before.

That said, how much do you really lose against the run with that package? Jones is someone who's overpowered pretty easily, at least last year. Hawk is someone who can take on some blockers, so he will be missed, but Bishop's energy, agility and movability should help against the run, as well.

One of the bigger drop-offs in run support might be at the safety spot. Burnett's big thing out of college was that he couldn't tackle. He's been amazing in camp so far, getting a lot of pass breakups and (potential) picks, but little has been said about run support so far.

And sorry for the whole Shianc rant. Lol.
bozz_2006
14 years ago
I feel like I'm the only one here who doesn't think Bishop should be starting over Hawk.
UserPostedImage
Dexter_Sinister
14 years ago
The knock I have on Bishop is, he is the same size and close to the same speed as Barnette. He is not as polished, technique wise. He can take on the run game aggressively, but he can make mistakes on assignments and technique. I would much rather have a Hawk than a second Barnette against a run. Your right about Jones, but he is a little bigger this year and having Pickett next to him may help anchor that end. That may have been part of the point of swapping him out there. To give Jones a big savvy vet next to him to help stuff the run and suck up double teams.

Rockmolder: Thanks for the apology, I wasn't offended. I just thought I wasn't clear enough.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Stevetarded
14 years ago

Eh, I think you have to temper that with the fact that this is day 2 of practice. Defense always coalesces way ahead of the offense.

"Wade" wrote:



Yet every year there's the "eeek, offense didn't dominate" thing. lol. I've learned to just laugh at it and roll with the goofyness.

I've been saving up money to buy a football season's worth of alcohol.

"tromadz" wrote:



Yes, but every year the "offense didn't dominate" refrain in training camp was followed by "OL wasn't dominant" in the regular season.

I'm not going to judge the year's possibilities by a week or two of training camp, either, but I *am* skeptical enough of the OL that I will find it easier to worry earlier than most. Because I've also heard the "it's early and the defense always works better earlier" refrain before...only to be followed by more than enough lingering and continuing questions on the OL.

But still, I'm goofy by nature. :)

"bozz_2006" wrote:



I don't think the offense dominating in training camp has anything really to do with how the offensive line is performing when they aren't even allowed to touch the QB. Even if they came out ripping the defense to shreds it would say absolutely 0 about how the O-Line is going to look. It seems like it's pretty much impossible to tell how it will work until they get in a live game week 1 otherwise they just don't get tested.
blank
go.pack.go.
14 years ago

I feel like I'm the only one here who doesn't think Bishop should be starting over Hawk.

"bozz_2006" wrote:



I agree with you. Bishop should NOT start over Hawk.

I still fail to understand WHY people do not like Hawk. He has been a good linebacker for us every since we drafted him. Sure, he hasn't been as good as expected (being drafted 5th overall), but he's been a very solid piece of this defense.
UserPostedImage
PackerTraxx
14 years ago
The defense just about always looks good first. I would be more worried if the offense was tearing up the defensse.
Why is Jerry Kramer not in the Hall of Fame?
Rockmolder
14 years ago

I feel like I'm the only one here who doesn't think Bishop should be starting over Hawk.

"go.pack.go." wrote:



I agree with you. Bishop should NOT start over Hawk.

I still fail to understand WHY people do not like Hawk. He has been a good linebacker for us every since we drafted him. Sure, he hasn't been as good as expected (being drafted 5th overall), but he's been a very solid piece of this defense.

"bozz_2006" wrote:



Let me make my point clear.

I'm not yelling for Bishop to start to start because he's the better all-around player. Hawk is a much thicker-body guy. Someone who can take on some blockers. He also has a nose for the ball.

Whenever he gets into coverage, though, it just looks wrong. Not horrible, like Kampman, but he just doesn't seem to belong anywhere deeper than 5 yards or in man on anyone but the FB.

He proved as much in practice against yesterday by getting consistently in zone coverages.

Bishop looks a lot more fluent back there. Maybe we'll lose a bit in in run support, but gain a bit in pas coverage.

And that's a trade-off that this defense can make. It's whether you want to have your best players on the field or your best team.

Next to that, I think Hawk is set to make $10 million next year.

He's not going to get that.

We might just as well see what we have in Bishop if he starts a full season. That way, we can see how big of a priority ILB will be next year in the draft.
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