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get_louder_at_lambeau
14 years ago

Interesting stats AADP. If Bigby was that good, who the hell was it that stank up our coverage? Tramon?

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



Derrick Martin stank up our coverage v the Vikes, 2 weeks after joining the team. 2nd Vikes game the whole secondary stank and Faver was high on revenge juice. Jarrett Bush and Josh Bell stank up our coverage v the Steelers. Everyone from Woodson on down got torched in the playoffs in one of the best games by a QB you'll ever see.
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all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

Interesting stats AADP. If Bigby was that good, who the hell was it that stank up our coverage? Tramon?

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



I think you have to break it down game by game.

First Minny game - Bigby didn't play. Who was responsible - I'd say frankly our pathetic depth at Safety. It's one thing to be unable to communicate, it's totally unacceptable when your starting SS (Martin) is being told what his assignment is by the starting CBs.


Second Minny game - The game log over at PFF shows Bigby was targeted four times, and gave up 3 completions for 11 yards. History shows us, further, that Dom Capers has routinely come out on the losing end when facing Favre. Simply, put, I think Favre's experience and abillity to find the weak spots in a 3-4 zone scheme that Capers runs was huge in us losing. Add to that, we basically got no consistent rush and well... you have a QB shredding your D.


Third game @ the Steelers - Bigby did give up a TD here, but in the grand scheme of things it looks a lot more like our CBs being exposed on improper technique (Bush and Bell come to mind for giving up two TDs - to start and end the game respectively) as well as the Steelers knowing where the lapses in this Defensive scheme would be. Add a lack of sustained pass rush (and throw in the difficult in pressuring / sacking Ben) then there were problems outside of just Bigby.


Fourth game @ Cardinals in WC - I'll echo what some Packer beat writers have said (McGinn in particular): Warner had a hell of a day, one he would be hard pressed to have again in his career were he still playing. He's getting passes out in 2-3 seconds. Add to that the fact that we frankly were terrible in tackling (Woodson himself was a culprit, too) and ... well it's hard to blame one player.


In short, frankly to blame our terrible pass D in four games on one player would be wrong. Bigby definitely is not blame-free, but to suggest he is the sole reason for our problems is wrong.

Edit: Or you can read get_loud_at_lambeau for a much more concise version.
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all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

What those stats don't show is the confusion with movement or stacked sets against us.. making coverage adjustments are the safeties responsibility in most defenses, something we have lacked with the tandem of Bigby and Collins.

"pack93z" wrote:



To be fair, though, coverage adjustments generally fall on Free Safties.


I get what you are saying though, and it's tough not to agree. Collins did (reportedly) score a 4 on the Wonderlic coming out.... you wonder if he is able to call adjustments.

I'm all for upgrading depth at the position - someone like a Myron Rolle - who you know can digest the NFL game, so to speak. The problem is that it's tough to find a short safety that can lead your defense and also be a top end player.

My thing with people just making Bigby a scapegoat... dude is not that bad of a player. Admittedly, I'd chose other DBs on this roster to cover ahead of Bigby, but he is not as bad as a Marquand Manuel or Mark Roman. There is something he can offer to us - even if it is just above average depth - and that shouldn't be overlooked.
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all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

I said that before in the "1 pick away from the SB" thread.

Bigby will make more plays when QBs are forced to get it out soon, lead their receivers into danger and just throw ill advised balls down the field.

That said, I don't think that he's one of the better cover safeties in the league. I like the stats, but for every time that the safety is totally out of position, the CB gets on catch given up on his record. The safety usually comes away scott free. He shouldn't be asked too cover deep too often or too long, because he will get burned.

And if you look at last season snaps alone, Bigby's injury problems don't look like that big of a deal, but when you see that he's started just 17 of the last 32 games and player in just 20, it looks a lot worse. And the time he missed wasn't mostly due to one big injury, it's always a big amount of small ones.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



I thought you said it, but wasn't sure; I think you made a great point.

I didn't intend to use stats to show Bigby is just as good as some of the best cover safties in the league, not at all. But he stacks up decently to those players - and that shows Bigby is far from a complete liability in coverage. You can use him without fear that we will get picked on and routinely give up big plays.

As for Bigby's injuries - I think dating back to last season he has missed most of his time with an ankle injury - one which required him to get surgery last off-season. It would be concerning if his injury history showed recurring problems year after year with his ankle, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I vaguely remember an article at the beginning of this season where Bigby admitted he compounded his injury woes by coming back too early and forcing himself to play, until the Saints game last year when that resulted in a season-ending injury.

I personally don't view his injury history as problematic because I don't think there is a whole lot there to pick at. He missed a few games with a bad shoulder last year, was it? Don't remember, but outside of his ankle I don't recall him being forced to sit out with different injuries.
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Stevetarded
14 years ago

This goes back to a chicken and egg debate that Warhawk and I had after the Cards game.

In the Steelers and Cardinal games.. where the stretched the defense out.. it illustrated the back end communication issues that we have.. you could be LT on the other side of Matthews.. it wouldn't matter.. you have to have a leader a signal caller in the back end of this defense that can make the adjustments and give the gents in the box some time to get home.

I have watched the Cardinal game a number of times now.. they had guys open in 2 to 3 beats of the snap.. and wide open because of play design and poor presnap adjustments and placement..

While I am not opposed to adding talent at the OLB or a DE that can bust a double team on the pass rush.. I think we are just trying to mask a root issue on the back end of this defense.. and that is a true QB of the defense that can make some on field adjustments presnap and help the more green defenders get into the best possible scenario to stop the play.

We are also selling two 2nd year defenders in Jones short.. just because Matthews exploded onto the scene, it doesn't take away from the fact that Jones held is own.. and will only improve in year two.

"pack93z" wrote:



I think it would be awesome if we could get another decent cover corner and have Woodson play SS (he basically does anyway) Having Woodson calling plays and making adjustments could bring the defense to another level because I would bet there are very few players in the NFL who could read an offense like Wood.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago
We'll get that chance when Woody loses a step, but while Woody is still at his prime, I want him playing as he does. He'll cover the #2 WR, then the #1 WR, then the TE. Screws up QBs as they don't know where he'll line up and they know that it's better to throw to the guy Woody's not covering.
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Dulak
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  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago

How many times does Bigby go for the big hit and miss?

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



If your asking for missed tackles, then the answer is 6.

Interestingly enough, our Pro-bowler Nick Collins also missed 6 tackles. Moreover, Ed Reed missed 6 tackles too.

The Safety Antrel Rolle, who signed a huge contract this offseason with the Giants, missed 16 (yes, 16) tackles.

Comparatively, Bigby didn't miss a heck of a lot of tackles.


Or when he takes the wrong angles on coverage?

"dhazer" wrote:



Bigby is credited with giving up 17 receptions for 158 yards out of being targeted 35 times - which results in 48.6 % of completions against.

Collins: 46.9 % completions against (15 of 32) for 306 yards.
Reed: 66.7 % completions against (14 of 21) for 142 yards.
Rolle: 63.4 % completions against (26 of 41) for 348 yards.


The main thing is the guy can't stay healthy and he is prone to alot of stupid penalties.

"dhazer" wrote:



Bigby played in 90.5% of the defensive snaps last year. He had only 1 penalty all of last year: week 3 against Cleveland.

Collins: 92.3 % (1 penalty)
Reed: 98.7 % (3 penalties)
Rolle: 95.0 % (2 penalties)

Here, Bigby does lack compared to other players but still 90% of the defensive snaps is nothing to sneeze at. He also gave up only 1 penalty all of last year.

All stats courtesy pro-football focus.

You know, if someone starts throwing things out there randomly - especially in question form - without any evidence whatsoever, it raises red flags. It's true in the business world, in academia, in legal realm.... it should be a cause for concern on here, too.

There is a reason why I compared Bigby's stats to other Free Safties - to show that compared to those who are supposedly better in coverage, Bigby still stacks up favorably.

He has his shortcomings, but there is talent there that can be worked with. I remember reading a post a couple of days back that said something to the effect of "get a pass-rush going, and Bigby will look like gold again"... I agree.

We certainly need to sure up the depth at the position, though.

"dhazer" wrote:



Well done! +1
dhazer
14 years ago

How many times does Bigby go for the big hit and miss?

"Dulak" wrote:



If your asking for missed tackles, then the answer is 6.

Interestingly enough, our Pro-bowler Nick Collins also missed 6 tackles. Moreover, Ed Reed missed 6 tackles too.

The Safety Antrel Rolle, who signed a huge contract this offseason with the Giants, missed 16 (yes, 16) tackles.

Comparatively, Bigby didn't miss a heck of a lot of tackles.


Or when he takes the wrong angles on coverage?

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Bigby is credited with giving up 17 receptions for 158 yards out of being targeted 35 times - which results in 48.6 % of completions against.

Collins: 46.9 % completions against (15 of 32) for 306 yards.
Reed: 66.7 % completions against (14 of 21) for 142 yards.
Rolle: 63.4 % completions against (26 of 41) for 348 yards.


The main thing is the guy can't stay healthy and he is prone to alot of stupid penalties.

"dhazer" wrote:



Bigby played in 90.5% of the defensive snaps last year. He had only 1 penalty all of last year: week 3 against Cleveland.

Collins: 92.3 % (1 penalty)
Reed: 98.7 % (3 penalties)
Rolle: 95.0 % (2 penalties)

Here, Bigby does lack compared to other players but still 90% of the defensive snaps is nothing to sneeze at. He also gave up only 1 penalty all of last year.

All stats courtesy pro-football focus.

You know, if someone starts throwing things out there randomly - especially in question form - without any evidence whatsoever, it raises red flags. It's true in the business world, in academia, in legal realm.... it should be a cause for concern on here, too.

There is a reason why I compared Bigby's stats to other Free Safties - to show that compared to those who are supposedly better in coverage, Bigby still stacks up favorably.

He has his shortcomings, but there is talent there that can be worked with. I remember reading a post a couple of days back that said something to the effect of "get a pass-rush going, and Bigby will look like gold again"... I agree.

We certainly need to sure up the depth at the position, though.

"dhazer" wrote:



Well done! +1

"dhazer" wrote:



So I got owned because you use one year of stats instead of a group of years because it would blow your theory out of the water.

So tell me this by what your saying you would take Bigby over those other 3 guys? If you say yes your on crack. Bigby can't stay healthy and he isn't that great of a player.


Now watch this video skip to around 2:37 and watch Bigby and tell me does he get blamed for a missed tackle I would say no because he took a bad angle and didn't even touch him. Stats like you post look pretty but as was stated do these people actually know if the player was suppose to be there or not.


[youtube]eYCVMUdsbpE[/youtube]
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British
14 years ago



Then looking at our safeties.. I will choose the unreal range of Collins over the physical traits of Bigby when replacing one of them.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



As much as people like to make fun of Sharper and ball-hawking, INTs seal games. Remember last year's SB?

Collins gets us INTs. So not just the unreal range vs physical explosiveness. Collins has 17 career INTs vs Bigby's 10 and 4 TDs vs Bigby's 0 and ten times (literally) the INT return yardage.

I wouldn't mind if Bigby passed on a mean hit to get a pick every once in a while. Would much rather see a WR desperately trying to tackle Bigby than a WR slow to get up because Bigby laid him out.

"pack93z" wrote:



I think part of the problem is your comparing a free safety with a strong safety. I think we agree Collins is much more talented than Bigby. But free safeties are usually athletic ball hawks, given free reign to chase interceptions. Bigby is a strong safety, asked more to help in run support, play closer to the line of scrimmage and act more as an enforcer.

Comparing the number of interceptions they have is like comparing the number of sacks between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT.

But on the subject of strong safeties, I'd much rather have a guy who wraps up properly than a 'big hitter' who goes for the kill but occasionally doesn't bring his man down. That seems to me one area Bigby could improve on.
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Rockmolder
14 years ago

How many times does Bigby go for the big hit and miss?

"dhazer" wrote:



If your asking for missed tackles, then the answer is 6.

Interestingly enough, our Pro-bowler Nick Collins also missed 6 tackles. Moreover, Ed Reed missed 6 tackles too.

The Safety Antrel Rolle, who signed a huge contract this offseason with the Giants, missed 16 (yes, 16) tackles.

Comparatively, Bigby didn't miss a heck of a lot of tackles.


Or when he takes the wrong angles on coverage?

"Dulak" wrote:



Bigby is credited with giving up 17 receptions for 158 yards out of being targeted 35 times - which results in 48.6 % of completions against.

Collins: 46.9 % completions against (15 of 32) for 306 yards.
Reed: 66.7 % completions against (14 of 21) for 142 yards.
Rolle: 63.4 % completions against (26 of 41) for 348 yards.


The main thing is the guy can't stay healthy and he is prone to alot of stupid penalties.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Bigby played in 90.5% of the defensive snaps last year. He had only 1 penalty all of last year: week 3 against Cleveland.

Collins: 92.3 % (1 penalty)
Reed: 98.7 % (3 penalties)
Rolle: 95.0 % (2 penalties)

Here, Bigby does lack compared to other players but still 90% of the defensive snaps is nothing to sneeze at. He also gave up only 1 penalty all of last year.

All stats courtesy pro-football focus.

You know, if someone starts throwing things out there randomly - especially in question form - without any evidence whatsoever, it raises red flags. It's true in the business world, in academia, in legal realm.... it should be a cause for concern on here, too.

There is a reason why I compared Bigby's stats to other Free Safties - to show that compared to those who are supposedly better in coverage, Bigby still stacks up favorably.

He has his shortcomings, but there is talent there that can be worked with. I remember reading a post a couple of days back that said something to the effect of "get a pass-rush going, and Bigby will look like gold again"... I agree.

We certainly need to sure up the depth at the position, though.

"dhazer" wrote:



Well done! +1

"dhazer" wrote:



So I got owned because you use one year of stats instead of a group of years because it would blow your theory out of the water.

So tell me this by what your saying you would take Bigby over those other 3 guys? If you say yes your on crack. Bigby can't stay healthy and he isn't that great of a player.


Now watch this video skip to around 2:37 and watch Bigby and tell me does he get blamed for a missed tackle I would say no because he took a bad angle and didn't even touch him. Stats like you post look pretty but as was stated do these people actually know if the player was suppose to be there or not.


[youtube]eYCVMUdsbpE[/youtube]

"dhazer" wrote:



Of course no one says that Bigby is better than Reed or Collins. I'm not a big fan off Rolle, but I would give him the nod over Bigby.

Read AADP's other posts in this thread. He agrees that Bigby has been injured too often for his liking.

Btw, it's amazing how obsessed you are with that video. Lol. And you want to say that he always takes bad angles because he took a bad angle against Peterson? Look at what he does, his vision, Peterson is an amazing back. Every single highlight in that video includes Peterson setting someone up and making him take a bad angle.
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