15 years ago

Like what?

Benefits paid out > Premiums taken in. Investment is the only way these companies survive. That is the cold reality of the insurance industry, much as it may pain people to admit it.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Investments may be what puts them from red to black, but that doesn't mean the foundation is unimportant, i.e. determining premiums and deductibles, selecting which services/treatments to cover, etc.. If they couldn't make as much with their investments, the calculations would have to be tweaked to far less attractive plans for the consumers, who are often overusing or misusing the healthcare system.
UserPostedImage
15 years ago

You do know what the most direct solution to the ER problem is, right? An intense focus on preventive medicine, which requires routine checkups, an efficient data management system, and universal health coverage to support it all.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



No, it requires personal responsibility and healthy lifestyles to obviate the need for routine healthcare.

The average health insurance plan for my family would be in excess of $900/month. I couldn't imagine coming up with $900 worth of reasons to use the healthcare industry per month. I take care of myself and my family, and we don't need that kind of health access. And this is despite the fact I have a pair of premature twins, one of whom is chronically immune compromised. When he's sick, as he often is, I take care of him. I don't rush him to the doctor.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



I agree with you, except personal responsibility and healthy lifestyle seems like a fantasy to me in this nation. You are demanding that people identify and eliminate all of the risk factors in their lives without the education that can be provided by a PCP. Think of how many people are raised in a completely ignorant environment. Not to mention, there are a great number of diseases and disorders that cost much less to be treated if caught earlier.
UserPostedImage
15 years ago

As noble as providing healthcare for everyone might be, that is not the purpose of government.

If do-gooders want to ensure everyone has health insurance, they should band together out of the goodness of their hearts, open their own purses, and found organizations that can provide this service. Hell, I would cheerfully contribute to such an organization (my dream in life is to be a doctor who gives away healthcare to those who cannot afford to pay). But these people shouldn't be abusing the power of government fiat to force the rest of us to dip into our pockets to subsidize a service we do not agree with.

As Thomas Jefferson said, taxing someone to pay for something that is antithetical to his beliefs is the worst form of tyranny.

"Porforis" wrote:



We are the only post-industrial nation to believe that.

Private insurance companies are already forcing us to subsidize a service for others that we do not use, and healthcare costs have risen to the point that you absolutely need coverage. Private companies have the power, and their sole interest is ever-increasing profit.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



See the last 40 posts where we discuss just how much profit health insurance companies and hospitals make. If you're going to bitch at health insurance companies pulling 4% and 8% profits, I simply won't be able to agree with you.

Government has the power, and has been exercising its power to regulate private companies. Banking, Auto industry, transportation, now healthcare. If you're going to say that private companies SOLE INTEREST is ever-increasing profit, government's sole interest is ever-increasing power. Power trumps profit every time.

Government is the ultimate monopoly - It makes the rules, can print or borrow all the money it wants and pass the consequences off onto others. What scares me is when there's zero history of efficiency when the government's competed or otherwise made a dive into the private sector (Post office competition with FedEx, Medicare come to mind), the government is TRYING (successfully or not) to set up their own health insurance company with the power to force you to join it.

No company has or ever will have that power.

At least our government is representative. We have no say when it comes to these private companies who hold the real power in the country. Democracy my ass. Capitalism trumps "Democracy" (I realize we're not a true democracy) in America every day of the week. Health care is just another example of how "by the people for the people" has become "by the privileged for the privileged."

I honestly do not understand this irrational fear in representative government, yet complete blind trust in private for-profit business that has screwed us repeatedly, and very publicly, in the past years.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Because the banking collapse was not at all affected by government meddling. Read up on the Community Reinvestment Act. Also, I don't see anybody here showing "blind trust in private for-profit business". If I missed it, please point it out.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



Yeah, the government's meddling played a role. Of course it did. And then the banks took advantage of it. Who pulled the trigger and did the most harm? I've gotten into this banking conversation on other boards and have read the act. I apologize for bringing up an entire other massive argument that could go on for pages and pages.

I can't answer everyone's posts here. I apologize. I'm at work and already wasting tons of time trying to formulate answers that cover all of the challenging points being raised. I don't think I'm up to the task all day.

I don't necessarily agree with "power trumps profit every time." Power is a means to an end, usually profit. They are often tied hand in hand. You can't simply say "government has unlimited power over money" etc. because the Federal Reserve is basically a conglomeration of private banks. I would say that the private sector IS the government monopoly that stands apart from the aspect of our government that is representative and controlled by the people.

A public option does not = forcing you to join it. You can still have private insurance coverage. Am I wrong in that assumption?
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago
Let me start with MassPackersFan's last question. No, a public option doesn't "force" you to take what it offers. Not yet anyway.

But let me respond with another question or two: Which enterprise, one has the greater ability to restrict your choices and options? One with tens of billions of dollars worth of assets at its disposal (an insurance company, say, or a bank), or one with tens of trillions of assets at its disposal, plus the ability to print pieces of paper and call them "dollars" or "US Treasury Bonds", plus the ability to enforce its will through taxation, law enforcement, and a monopoly over socially legitimate coercion?

I tell the insurance company (or another private company) to fuck off, what can they do to me? Refuse to trade with me. Refuse to offer me services.

I tell the government to fuck off, what can they do to me? They can take my money. They can take my land. They can take my guns. They can take my cell phone and anything else they want. They can make me "voluntarily" pay income taxes. They can suspend habeas corpus or any other rights of mine, or even kill me in the name of "national security."

They can. And history shows they have. Over and over again.

They can regulate the fuck out of me, and they have. Over and over again. To the tune of hundreds of thousands of pages that I am required to obey upon penalty of the law because "ignorance of the law is no excuse." Even though to read said laws and regulations at the rate of one book per day it would take me something between one and two years and I wouldn't even touch the hundreds of thousands of pages of court opinions to which I am subject. And in the meantime they'll change tens, or even hundreds of thousands of those pages, so a quarter of what I've read is out of date by the time I'm finished.

And they can do it without even reading the damn things first themselves. Some people have made a big deal of the fact that a thousand pages or so of health bill is put into effect without the morons of Congress having read them first. Well, guess what? That's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to abdication of responsibility. Because I can guarantee without having read the thing that said unread health bill will come with a "delegation" of rule-making and adjudicatory authority to unelected officials that dwarfs a thousand pages by at least an order of magnitude.

All of it backed up by the coercive power of the IRS, the FBI, the Department of Justice, and the rest.

Yes, private industry has screwed me, and will again. But to compare that possible to the repeated gang rapes that the state can and will and has, repeatedly, been allowed to commit.....that's an error of proportion akin to saying we need to protect ourselves against the next Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein the way we need to protect ourselves against the next Hitler or Pol Pot.

Okay, I get it. People don't trust their insurance company or their employer or Bad Corporation X. Fine. I don't trust the bastards much myself.

But why in the heck do you trust an organization that, despite having power that dwarfs the largest of evil corporations, has shown itself to be even less trustworthy?

I just don't get that.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
15 years ago
Very valid point. I guess I don't understand the separation of the two in our minds. I think it's pretty clear that the government is working for the private sector, and to probably some extent, vice versa, and it's extremely problematic. This healthcare bill without a public option is absolutely, positively working for the private insurance companies. The examples of how private business and industry has their fingers on the controls of our government are limitless. "Government" has become the vehicle by which they acquired access to more power to screw us in all of the ways you said they have, and more. There are some remnants of the representative government our founders envisioned, and sometimes elected officials try to put them into action with some measure of vision behind it, but it's always corrupted and turned inside out for the benefit of the powers behind the power.

My apologies for your loss of your money, land, guns, and cell phones. RIP. :lol:
UserPostedImage
PackFanWithTwins
15 years ago
So we have established that insurance companies take in X dollars and pay X dollars. What else do we expect them to do. Finding a way to make money while still accomplishing that should not be frowned upon.

My question is, how is a public option going to compete with that? Insurance companies invest, so they can pay for their buildings and pay employees salaries. Are we going to let the government into private investing? Or are we going to pay for this with tax money?

To get insurance for more people (maybe everybody) the cost needs to be cut down, so the insurance companies can provide the insurance at a reasonable cost, then they can still invest to make their profit.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
15 years ago
If health care costs are lowered, I don't see insurance companies lowering their prices for coverage unless it means an increased overall profit by having more people covered under more policies.
UserPostedImage
Porforis
15 years ago
Oh brother.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/23/gop-constitutional-challenge-senate-health-fails/ 

The Senate voted 60-39 to reject Sen. John Ensign's call to examine the constitutionality of a health care mandate central to the overhaul bill.

The Nevada Republican wanted to determine whether it was constitutional for the federal government to require Americans to purchase health insurance.



I guess there's no doubt left that this is all about passing A bill, not a bill that will actually do something. You'd think one or two of the people voting for the bill might think it's a good idea to see if what you're proposing is constitutional or not. I also find the timing curious - Plenty of time for things to blow over before the 2010 election (but not if they don't cram it through NOW), and the bulk of the changes won't take effect until 2013 (after the 2012 presidential race).
Dulak
15 years ago

Dulak - The sad thing is they are making a lot of money. The lawyers and the insurance companies are making more money than the doctors. You're seeing a lot of qualified Americans who no longer want to be doctors because it's not worth it.

For example John Edwards made millions suing hospitals. Guess how the hospitals recoup that money lost? That's right, raising their prices on us.
.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



I work in the health care field ... I can tell you this as a chiropractor when talking about how many other chiropractors function.

Many look to 'rape' insurance companies to make money. Meaning they are inclined to do services so they make money even if it is not medically necessary.
plane and simple is against what doctors should be doing (and this obviously isnt just chiropractors that function this way).

In california there was a huge change in how workerscomp and personal injury cases were handeled because again; chiropractors were literally 'raping' the insurance companies that handeled these. And the california chiropractors were so good at it that there had to be a state wide change to not allow chiropractors (err could be other practiononeers also) to not be able to abuse the system anymore.

these are just some examples that have bugged me about my profession.

ie another reason why your insurance costs are so high (again I would have to assume these types of practices are not just done by chiros but by many health care practionerrs).
PackFanWithTwins
15 years ago

If health care costs are lowered, I don't see insurance companies lowering their prices for coverage unless it means an increased overall profit by having more people covered under more policies.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



This is where you are wrong IMO.

The biggest complaint around the country, is not that people are not offered insurance, it is that what they are offered is to expensive. Insurance companies look at risk reward and determine a price based on risk level.

Somebody goes to get insurance and makes 20k a year. but their risk level puts them at a level that is determined to cost 2 k month to cover. The insurance company knows there is no way that person can afford to pay that much, so why offer it in the first place. Now lower the costs and that 2k a month turns into 1k. Now that is a level where it is worth offering in the first place.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Users browsing this topic
    Fan Shout
    Mucky Tundra (2h) : Will there be a tracker on the ball or something?
    Zero2Cool (5h) : uh oh
    Martha Careful (5h) : Too bad camera's can't spot the ball as well.
    Mucky Tundra (7h) : So will the chain gang be gone completely or will they still be around as a backup or whatever?
    Zero2Cool (7h) : The method for measuring first downs in the NFL will switch from chain gangs to camera-based technology in 2025, the league announced.
    Martha Careful (11h) : A big step in the right direction. Just put in the college system is very very good.
    Zero2Cool (13h) : NFL has passed a rule that allows both teams to possess the ball in OT during the regular season
    Zero2Cool (13h) : Touchbacks on kickoffs will now bring the ball to the 35-yard line.
    beast (31-Mar) : It might of gotten more popular recently, but braiding hair (even men) in certain cultures goes back for centuries.
    Martha Careful (30-Mar) : Is men braiding their hair a new style thing? Watching the NCAA men's tournament many players have done
    Zero2Cool (29-Mar) : Ha. Well, it'd be nice for folks to reset their own password. Via validated email 😏
    beast (29-Mar) : Monopoly was supposed to be an educational game, that show how evil capitalism was and how we should avoid it
    beast (29-Mar) : Lol, I was thinking username would be better, as then I wouldn't have to keep an email up to date lol 😂
    beast (29-Mar) : Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : I was thinking email because I think it'll make folks keep it up todate lol
    wpr (29-Mar) : sure is
    Zero2Cool (29-Mar) : Monopoly is a rip off of The Landlord's Game
    wpr (27-Mar) : 28 days until the draft
    earthquake (27-Mar) : Which seemed strange to my 9 year old self, that you could be a fan for a team other than the one you play for
    earthquake (27-Mar) : Nothing eventful happened, other than it being clear that he was a bengals fan
    earthquake (27-Mar) : And we went and hung out with him one afternoon, I must have been 9 or so
    earthquake (27-Mar) : That’s wild, when I was a kid my friend lived in the same apartment complex in De Pere
    Mucky Tundra (27-Mar) : Only career highspot was a 200 yard rushing game while playing for the Cardinals
    Mucky Tundra (27-Mar) : He is a former Packer. Drafted out of Northern Illinois. Didn't do much in GB.
    dfosterf (26-Mar) : Despicable
    Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Former NFL. I think Packers too
    Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : NFL RB Leshon Johnson has been charged in a massive dog fighting operation, with the FBI seizing over 190 Pit Bulls
    Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : Some real irony of a QB as short as Wilson playing for the Giants
    Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : Giants country, let's be the tall beings of lore!
    Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : Russell Wilson signs with the Giants.
    Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : I was thinking email because I think it'll make folks keep it up todate lol
    wpr (25-Mar) : I don't think there is a significant difference. I use a user name for many. Others email.
    Martha Careful (25-Mar) : email
    Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : would it be better to use EMAIL or USERNAME to log into a site?
    wpr (25-Mar) : Thanks Zero
    Zero2Cool (24-Mar) : New forum has the ability to Thank a post now.
    beast (24-Mar) : And the only time they have won the Championship in an even year, was the first time they did, in 2006.
    beast (24-Mar) : Since 2007, there have been 10 odd numbered years, Wisconsin Women have won the Championship in 7 of those 10 odd numbered years.
    buckeyepackfan (24-Mar) : Congratulations Lady Badger Hockey Team. NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!!
    Zero2Cool (23-Mar) : I don't think it's completed yet. it was just announced last month, right?
    dhazer (23-Mar) : did netflix ever release the Packers documentary
    Zero2Cool (21-Mar) : And it is glorious!
    beast (21-Mar) : Unsigned FA QB Rodgers is supposedly in the Steelers building
    Martha Careful (19-Mar) : But I don't own a car! So can I still use it in my apartment?
    Zero2Cool (19-Mar) : btw, new site auto updates
    Zero2Cool (19-Mar) : Woohoo!
    TheKanataThrilla (19-Mar) : Oops I guess I should have updated the site before posting
    TheKanataThrilla (19-Mar) : Jeremy Fowler @JFowlerESPN · Follow Source: Free agent WR/return specialist Mecole Hardman is signing with the #Packers on a one-year deal.
    Zero2Cool (18-Mar) : Former Packers wide receiver Bob Long, who stayed in Wisconsin after playing days, dies at age 83
    Martha Careful (17-Mar) : PFOW, Pati O'Furniture
    wpr (17-Mar) : Thanks dfosterf. Been a while since I heard the song.
    Please sign in to use Fan Shout
    2024 Packers Schedule
    Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
    Eagles
    Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
    COLTS
    Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
    Titans
    Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
    VIKINGS
    Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
    Rams
    Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
    CARDINALS
    Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
    TEXANS
    Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
    Jaguars
    Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
    LIONS
    Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
    Bears
    Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
    49ERS
    Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
    DOLPHINS
    Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
    Lions
    Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
    Seahawks
    Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
    SAINTS
    Sunday, Dec 29 @ 3:25 PM
    Vikings
    Sunday, Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM
    BEARS
    Sunday, Jan 12 @ 3:30 PM
    Eagles
    Recent Topics
    7h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    9h / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

    31-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    30-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    29-Mar / Random Babble / wpr

    28-Mar / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / dfosterf

    28-Mar / Random Babble / Martha Careful

    26-Mar / Random Babble / Mucky Tundra

    25-Mar / Random Babble / Martha Careful

    24-Mar / Random Babble / packerfanoutwest

    24-Mar / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

    21-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    19-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    19-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

    18-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

    Headlines
    Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.