Dubyajay87
16 years ago

"beast" wrote:

Sean McDermott was at the top of my list or even Chuck Cecil from the Titans.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I say DC Williams (or what ever the guys name that went to the Saints) is the best 4-3 DC IMO in the NFL.... yeah he didn't get it working with the Jags but the Jags had problems and he got it done every where else.



Most others who I talked with also agreed at the time (before we hired Capers) that we were really built for a 43 scheme.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I'll disagree with that... I think other than Kampman, Barnett and Chillar most of the players fit in about the same with the 3-4 and some players fit better in the 3-4 like Harrell, Thompson and Bigby...



But the bonus of being able to draft 34 players in the latter rounds of the draft isn't going to happen anymore with seemingly every team switching over. It isn't like Pittsburgh, Dallas and the Bills are the only teams employing the set anymore. I think I read somewhere that there are 14 teams running it now?!

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



Ummm off the top of my head...

Pats
Dolphins
Jets
Browns
Ravens
Steelers
Chargers
Chiefs (new to it)
Broncos (new to it)
Cowboys
Cards (they're in both 3-4 and 4-3)
Packers (new to it)
49ers

and I'm pretty sure the Bills have been running the 4-3 the last couple of years.... not sure if they've changed or not.



Also I disagree with the it's going to be harder to find guys because in the difference is in the 4-3 you need more talent which everyone is looking for. In the 3-4 you can be less talented and still make it work if you versatile...

There are a ton of more under size DEs (which is what you look for at 3-4 OLB) then right sized DEs (which you look at 4-3 DE).

There are a ton more under sized DT (which is what you look for in the 3-4 DE) then right sized DT (which you look for in the 4-3 DT)


So the different is a lot bigger group for of DEs and OLBs to choose from... BUT the down side is you got to find a good/great healthy NT.

So four positions are easier to get but one is extremely harder.



Uh, ya ok...

I think you made my point for me. You listed 12 teams running the 34. I understand the fact that it is hard to find really good 43 front men in the draft. But your point of being able to find 34 guys who are less talented and just plug them in is ridiculous in my mind. Talent is talent. Yes the Bills run the 43, my point was back in the nineties when there were a handful of teams running the 34 (Pittsburgh, Dallas, and yes the Bills ran it then). The key to them being good now is they could find talent later on in the draft because players that they coveted were there. Now with (excuse me) 12 teams running the 34 or a hybrid, those players that hit the later rounds will be chosen earlier.

And just because a guy has prototypical size for a 5 technique, doesn't mean squat. There are guys who have ideal size like Peria Jerry for the slot, but he is more of a Tampa 2 design DT. So saying that there are more of them out there and anyone can just get thrown in there to me is a pretty crappy way of arguing a point. You do that and you end up with San Fran's Defense. Exactly - Who?


Anyhow, my original point is that I believed that we were a closer reflection of the 2007 defense than last years defense. Losing your staring DE (Jenkins), SS (Bigby), and having Harrell hurt I believe really took this unit from a great D, to a mediocre and sometimes abysmal D.
*Harrell will start at LDE this year, Book it!
bozz_2006
16 years ago
Dubya, your point is taken, but in my opinion it's a flat argument. Deciding not to run a 3-4 because there are a few more teams using it now than in the past? Eh. If you think the scheme will help you and your team, which McCarthy thinks it will, I say you do it.
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Dubyajay87
16 years ago

I'm not iffy, on the contrary, I really like it. Can't wait till our defense will resemble that of the Ravens or Steelers. Maybe not talent wise even, but just wiht all the moving around etc.

Anyway, I see how people would want us to play the 4-3 mainly, though.

Our main weak points on defense last year where a real starting OLB opposite of Hawk and the D-line. Now, Jenkins is back on the D-line. He's just a great DE in either scheme. Thompson should've progressed and should be a good 4-3 DE (on passing downs). We have Matthews who would be a great OLB in the 4-3 aswell and Raji to replace Jolly, who is ok, but nothing great. Our Nickel packages should look pretty scary aswell.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



I don't see Poppinga (although not great) as the problem at all last year. They did a good job subbing in Chillar on passing downs to cover TE's. Sam's job is to blow up the lead blocker on run plays and he did that very well. For a position that is in the game only 50% of the time, I think Popps/Chillar did pretty good. The problem as I saw it was that Barnett had a poor year. With Jolly playing very poorly, guards were able to get to the second level with ease and manhandle Barnett. Hawk with his graoin injury- well, w/o his speed, it showed. He looked very tentative out there.

An injury riddled line, Harrell, KGB (remember he was suppose to still be a 3rd down specialist but his knees gave out), Jenkins, along with Barnett and Hawk's Injury really were the downfall IMO.
*Harrell will start at LDE this year, Book it!
Dubyajay87
16 years ago

Dubya, your point is taken, but in my opinion it's a flat argument. Deciding not to run a 3-4 because there are a few more teams using it now than in the past? Eh. If you think the scheme will help you and your team, which McCarthy thinks it will, I say you do it.

"bozz_2006" wrote:



Hey, I actually agree with you. I just think we were really close to having a great defense as a 43 unit and I don't believe the transition will be as quick or as smooth as some might believe. My theory that I was taught is you get as much pressure with as few people as possible. We did that very well in '07, pitiful at is last year. I just foresee a few problems this year. (Kampman)
*Harrell will start at LDE this year, Book it!
Rockmolder
16 years ago
I agree. But we didn't have any glaring holes for our starters on defense. It's more about the depth.

When you do look at the spots that weren't amazing, you have to look at OLB and DT. We got first round guys for both those spots. That was pretty much what I was trying to say.
beast
16 years ago

I think you made my point for me. You listed 12 teams running the 34.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I wasn't trying to disprove your point. I was trying to say the truth. Also I think it's 13.

But your point of being able to find 34 guys who are less talented and just plug them in is ridiculous in my mind.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



Well I can't help that it's ridiculous in your mind. I never said just plus them in. In the 4-3 you look for more talented guys that don't have to be versatile.... in the 3-4 you need guys that can be versatile.... and don't need to be quite as talented. Again if that's ridiculous in your mind I can't help it.

Talent is talent. Yes the Bills run the 43, my point was back in the nineties when there were a handful of teams running the 34 (Pittsburgh, Dallas, and yes the Bills ran it then). The key to them being good now is they could find talent later on in the draft because players that they coveted were there. Now with (excuse me) 12 teams running the 34 or a hybrid, those players that hit the later rounds will be chosen earlier.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I understand your logic but that maybe not be how it happens. I mean the Steelers have been able to get a defensive MVP out of a UDFA. He's not the most talented guy but he's very versatile and does all the little things.


And just because a guy has prototypical size for a 5 technique, doesn't mean squat. There are guys who have ideal size like Peria Jerry for the slot, but he is more of a Tampa 2 design DT. So saying that there are more of them out there and anyone can just get thrown in there to me is a pretty crappy way of arguing a point. You do that and you end up with San Fran's Defense. Exactly - Who?

"Dubyajay87" wrote:




Well that is a crappy way of arguing a point. Maybe that's why nobody is saying that. Which really brings to me wondering why your bring it up.

I never said you could throw anyone in there. Never said that so please stop assuming I did.

I said that their are a lot more 3-4 DEs and 3-4 OLBs out there then 4-3 DEs and 4-3s DTs to choose from which is complete and totally true.

The 3-4 basically uses tweeners at the DE and OLB spots and their are a ton more tweeners than non tweeners. I never said anybody could play it just that their a higher number which gives you a higher % that someone will.


Anyhow, my original point is that I believed that we were a closer reflection of the 2007 defense than last years defense. Losing your staring DE (Jenkins), SS (Bigby), and having Harrell hurt I believe really took this unit from a great D, to a mediocre and sometimes abysmal D.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I think healthy has been the biggest problem. Also bates' system you need a lot of DTs rotating and last year the Packers had 3 DTs most of the year.

They needed to get away from the Bates system no matter what.
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JNelson87
16 years ago
I'm excited about the 3-4 switch and I like the switch to 3-4. I do have my concerns though but all in all I think our defense will improve tremendously under Dom. If things aren't going right, he'll fix it. We should be more aggresive and more consistent. Our rookie additions will provide some spark as well. We have great talent on defense as it is. We should be fine.
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