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Dubyajay87
15 years ago

"beast" wrote:

Sean McDermott was at the top of my list or even Chuck Cecil from the Titans.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I say DC Williams (or what ever the guys name that went to the Saints) is the best 4-3 DC IMO in the NFL.... yeah he didn't get it working with the Jags but the Jags had problems and he got it done every where else.



Most others who I talked with also agreed at the time (before we hired Capers) that we were really built for a 43 scheme.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I'll disagree with that... I think other than Kampman, Barnett and Chillar most of the players fit in about the same with the 3-4 and some players fit better in the 3-4 like Harrell, Thompson and Bigby...



But the bonus of being able to draft 34 players in the latter rounds of the draft isn't going to happen anymore with seemingly every team switching over. It isn't like Pittsburgh, Dallas and the Bills are the only teams employing the set anymore. I think I read somewhere that there are 14 teams running it now?!

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



Ummm off the top of my head...

Pats
Dolphins
Jets
Browns
Ravens
Steelers
Chargers
Chiefs (new to it)
Broncos (new to it)
Cowboys
Cards (they're in both 3-4 and 4-3)
Packers (new to it)
49ers

and I'm pretty sure the Bills have been running the 4-3 the last couple of years.... not sure if they've changed or not.



Also I disagree with the it's going to be harder to find guys because in the difference is in the 4-3 you need more talent which everyone is looking for. In the 3-4 you can be less talented and still make it work if you versatile...

There are a ton of more under size DEs (which is what you look for at 3-4 OLB) then right sized DEs (which you look at 4-3 DE).

There are a ton more under sized DT (which is what you look for in the 3-4 DE) then right sized DT (which you look for in the 4-3 DT)


So the different is a lot bigger group for of DEs and OLBs to choose from... BUT the down side is you got to find a good/great healthy NT.

So four positions are easier to get but one is extremely harder.



Uh, ya ok...

I think you made my point for me. You listed 12 teams running the 34. I understand the fact that it is hard to find really good 43 front men in the draft. But your point of being able to find 34 guys who are less talented and just plug them in is ridiculous in my mind. Talent is talent. Yes the Bills run the 43, my point was back in the nineties when there were a handful of teams running the 34 (Pittsburgh, Dallas, and yes the Bills ran it then). The key to them being good now is they could find talent later on in the draft because players that they coveted were there. Now with (excuse me) 12 teams running the 34 or a hybrid, those players that hit the later rounds will be chosen earlier.

And just because a guy has prototypical size for a 5 technique, doesn't mean squat. There are guys who have ideal size like Peria Jerry for the slot, but he is more of a Tampa 2 design DT. So saying that there are more of them out there and anyone can just get thrown in there to me is a pretty crappy way of arguing a point. You do that and you end up with San Fran's Defense. Exactly - Who?


Anyhow, my original point is that I believed that we were a closer reflection of the 2007 defense than last years defense. Losing your staring DE (Jenkins), SS (Bigby), and having Harrell hurt I believe really took this unit from a great D, to a mediocre and sometimes abysmal D.
*Harrell will start at LDE this year, Book it!
bozz_2006
15 years ago
Dubya, your point is taken, but in my opinion it's a flat argument. Deciding not to run a 3-4 because there are a few more teams using it now than in the past? Eh. If you think the scheme will help you and your team, which McCarthy thinks it will, I say you do it.
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Dubyajay87
15 years ago

I'm not iffy, on the contrary, I really like it. Can't wait till our defense will resemble that of the Ravens or Steelers. Maybe not talent wise even, but just wiht all the moving around etc.

Anyway, I see how people would want us to play the 4-3 mainly, though.

Our main weak points on defense last year where a real starting OLB opposite of Hawk and the D-line. Now, Jenkins is back on the D-line. He's just a great DE in either scheme. Thompson should've progressed and should be a good 4-3 DE (on passing downs). We have Matthews who would be a great OLB in the 4-3 aswell and Raji to replace Jolly, who is ok, but nothing great. Our Nickel packages should look pretty scary aswell.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



I don't see Poppinga (although not great) as the problem at all last year. They did a good job subbing in Chillar on passing downs to cover TE's. Sam's job is to blow up the lead blocker on run plays and he did that very well. For a position that is in the game only 50% of the time, I think Popps/Chillar did pretty good. The problem as I saw it was that Barnett had a poor year. With Jolly playing very poorly, guards were able to get to the second level with ease and manhandle Barnett. Hawk with his graoin injury- well, w/o his speed, it showed. He looked very tentative out there.

An injury riddled line, Harrell, KGB (remember he was suppose to still be a 3rd down specialist but his knees gave out), Jenkins, along with Barnett and Hawk's Injury really were the downfall IMO.
*Harrell will start at LDE this year, Book it!
Dubyajay87
15 years ago

Dubya, your point is taken, but in my opinion it's a flat argument. Deciding not to run a 3-4 because there are a few more teams using it now than in the past? Eh. If you think the scheme will help you and your team, which McCarthy thinks it will, I say you do it.

"bozz_2006" wrote:



Hey, I actually agree with you. I just think we were really close to having a great defense as a 43 unit and I don't believe the transition will be as quick or as smooth as some might believe. My theory that I was taught is you get as much pressure with as few people as possible. We did that very well in '07, pitiful at is last year. I just foresee a few problems this year. (Kampman)
*Harrell will start at LDE this year, Book it!
Rockmolder
15 years ago
I agree. But we didn't have any glaring holes for our starters on defense. It's more about the depth.

When you do look at the spots that weren't amazing, you have to look at OLB and DT. We got first round guys for both those spots. That was pretty much what I was trying to say.
beast
15 years ago

I think you made my point for me. You listed 12 teams running the 34.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I wasn't trying to disprove your point. I was trying to say the truth. Also I think it's 13.

But your point of being able to find 34 guys who are less talented and just plug them in is ridiculous in my mind.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



Well I can't help that it's ridiculous in your mind. I never said just plus them in. In the 4-3 you look for more talented guys that don't have to be versatile.... in the 3-4 you need guys that can be versatile.... and don't need to be quite as talented. Again if that's ridiculous in your mind I can't help it.

Talent is talent. Yes the Bills run the 43, my point was back in the nineties when there were a handful of teams running the 34 (Pittsburgh, Dallas, and yes the Bills ran it then). The key to them being good now is they could find talent later on in the draft because players that they coveted were there. Now with (excuse me) 12 teams running the 34 or a hybrid, those players that hit the later rounds will be chosen earlier.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I understand your logic but that maybe not be how it happens. I mean the Steelers have been able to get a defensive MVP out of a UDFA. He's not the most talented guy but he's very versatile and does all the little things.


And just because a guy has prototypical size for a 5 technique, doesn't mean squat. There are guys who have ideal size like Peria Jerry for the slot, but he is more of a Tampa 2 design DT. So saying that there are more of them out there and anyone can just get thrown in there to me is a pretty crappy way of arguing a point. You do that and you end up with San Fran's Defense. Exactly - Who?

"Dubyajay87" wrote:




Well that is a crappy way of arguing a point. Maybe that's why nobody is saying that. Which really brings to me wondering why your bring it up.

I never said you could throw anyone in there. Never said that so please stop assuming I did.

I said that their are a lot more 3-4 DEs and 3-4 OLBs out there then 4-3 DEs and 4-3s DTs to choose from which is complete and totally true.

The 3-4 basically uses tweeners at the DE and OLB spots and their are a ton more tweeners than non tweeners. I never said anybody could play it just that their a higher number which gives you a higher % that someone will.


Anyhow, my original point is that I believed that we were a closer reflection of the 2007 defense than last years defense. Losing your staring DE (Jenkins), SS (Bigby), and having Harrell hurt I believe really took this unit from a great D, to a mediocre and sometimes abysmal D.

"Dubyajay87" wrote:



I think healthy has been the biggest problem. Also bates' system you need a lot of DTs rotating and last year the Packers had 3 DTs most of the year.

They needed to get away from the Bates system no matter what.
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JNelson87
15 years ago
I'm excited about the 3-4 switch and I like the switch to 3-4. I do have my concerns though but all in all I think our defense will improve tremendously under Dom. If things aren't going right, he'll fix it. We should be more aggresive and more consistent. Our rookie additions will provide some spark as well. We have great talent on defense as it is. We should be fine.
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beast (2h) : I was rooting for the Bears to win and hurt their draft pick status
Zero2Cool (2h) : Forgot there was even a game last night haha
TheKanataThrilla (2h) : That was terrible.
TheKanataThrilla (2h) : Watching that game in its entirety yesterday is proof positive that I am a football addict.
beast (2h) : And horrible time management multiple times... and not being able to score more than 3 points on a team with talent
beast (2h) : Realizing the Bears didn't fix it from the previous week and do the same thing, getting the game to overtime
beast (2h) : They probably are not tanking, but they've absolutely mismanagement some things, such as Vikings seeing the Packers blocked FG and realizing
Zero2Cool (3h) : Crazy of Bears to have that mindset that is
Zero2Cool (4h) : Hail Mary stop away from 5 - 2. Not sure how that flips to tanking. Crazy mindset if true
beast (4h) : I've quietly questioned if Bears are tanking on purpose... they suddenly got a lot worse with some simple concepts like 101 clock management
wpr (6h) : Watching bares fans melt down over how putrid their team is, so enjoyable. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
Mucky Tundra (14h) : The Seattle Seahawks defeat the Chicago Bears 6-3. Jason Myers had 6 RBIs for Seattle while Cairo Santos had 3 RBI for Chicago
beast (15h) : Not nessarily, he might of been injured either way. He's playing about 50% of the games the last 4 years
Zero2Cool (21h) : If they'd been more patient with him, he'd be back already. Putting him out there vs Bears caused him to tweak it and here we are.
packerfanoutwest (21h) : well this is his last season with the PAck, book it
beast (22h) : Sounds like no Alexander (again), I'm wondering if his time with the Packers is done
Zero2Cool (26-Dec) : Could ban beast and I still don't think anyone catches him.
Mucky Tundra (26-Dec) : Houston getting dog walked by Baltimore
packerfanoutwest (25-Dec) : Feliz Navidad!
Zero2Cool (25-Dec) : Merry Christmas!
beast (25-Dec) : Merry Christmas 🎄🎁
beast (24-Dec) : Sounds like no serious injuries from the Saints game and Jacobs and Watson should play in the Vikings game
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : both games Watson missed, Packers won
Martha Careful (24-Dec) : I hope all of you have a Merry Christmas!
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Oh I know about Jacobs, I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to mimic Zero lol
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : Jacobs was just sat down, Watson re-injured that knee that kept him out 1 game earlier
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : I needed .14 that's. .14 points for the whole 4th quarter to win and go to the SB. Lol
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Jacobs gonna be OK???
Zero2Cool (24-Dec) : Watson gonna be OK???
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : Inactives tonight for the Pack: Alexander- knee Bullard - ankle Williams - quad Walker -ankle Monk Heath
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : No Jaire, but hopefully the front 7 destroys the line of scrimmage & forces Rattler into a few passes to McKinney.
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : minny could be #1 seed and the Lions #5 seed
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : We'd have same Division and Conference records. Strength of schedule we edge them
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I just checked. What tie breaker?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes its possible but unlikely. If we do get the 5th, we face the NFCS winner
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ahh, ok.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes due to tie breaker
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I mean, unlikely, yes, but mathematically, 5th is possible by what I'm reading.
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : If Vikings lose out, Packers win out, Packers get 5th, right?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : Minny isnt going to lose out so 5th seed is out of the equation. We are playing for the 6th or 7th seed which makes no difference
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, the ad revenue goes to the broadcast company but they gotta pay to air the game on their channel/network
beast (23-Dec) : If we win tonight the game is still relative in terms of 5th, 6th or 7th seed... win and it's 5th or 6th, lose and it's 6th or 7th
beast (23-Dec) : Mucky, I thought the ad revenue went to the broadcasting companies or the NFL, at least not directly
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think the revenue share is moot, isn't it? That's the CBA an Salary Cap handling that.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : i mean game becomes irrelevant if we win tonight. Just a game where we are trying to play spoilers to Vikings chance at the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, I would guess ad revenue from more eyes watching tv
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I would think it would hurt the home team because people would have to cancel last minute maybe? i dunno
beast (23-Dec) : I agree that it's BS for fans planning on going to the game. But how does it bring in more money? I'm guessing indirectly?
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : bs on flexing the game....they do it for the $$league$$, not the hometown fans
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I see what you did there Mucky
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