ILikeThePackers39
16 years ago

Well, while I'll admit up front that I don't know how all the schemes inter-relate, I think we've got good personnel (assuming Jenkins comes back and we can find a new guy to fill KGB's role) to run a scheme like the Eagles and Giants run. For one, we've got the personnel in the secondary to man-up on the WRs and free the LB corps and a safety to attack the ball. For another, we've got very good team speed.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:




The Packers employ a 4-3 cover 1 (man-to-man press), and other 4-3 variants include cover 2 (Tampa 2), Cover 3, and quarters.

The Eagles and Giants employ a much more diverse style of 4-3, meaning they mix up their coverages from cover 1, quarters, cover 3, etc. The Packers differ mainly because they employ almost exclusively cover 1, and some quarters coverage.


The premise of the 4-3 D, whether it's cover 1/2/3/quarters is that you have a d-line that gets pressure on the QB. The coverage in turn is supposed to give you the extra time to get to the QB, giving the QB no immediate check downs in the face of coming pressure.

Regardless of us changing from Cover 1 to any other 4-3 scheme, we're going to struggle because we lack the fundamental necessity; we don't have a decent pass rush. Our d-line is a weakness, and that's a major no-no 4-3 scheme.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:




Cool. Good info, thanks. Doesn't change my mind, though - we need to do work on our D line in any case. I don't think there's a scheme out there that allows for a weak D line and no QB pressures. Assuming (and therefore making an ass out of U and ME) we do something about that DL personnel, I think we've got the makings of a group than can run a variant of the Johnson/Spagnuolo-style 4-3.

More importantly, guys like Johnson seem (I'm not going to pretend I've done extensive study on this, at least not yet) to be far more able to adjust to game situations than our staff. If that's a product of them running such diverse schemes, then that's more reason for me to want something like that in GB - if it's simply that those coaches are that far superior to guys like Sanders, then I still want one.
blank
go.pack.go.
16 years ago
Our best athlete in our secondary in my opinion is Will Blackmon. Look at some of the stuff he does in kick/punt returns. He's knocked on his back, and he jumps from his back to his feet. (WOW). Last week vs. the lions, he caught the punt while laying on his back. (the play before the free kick).
Pack93z
16 years ago

Other than Woodson.. we don't have corners that play well in space at this time.. they have been groomed to play bump and run with a cover two safety coverage over the top.. Williams might be okay in zone.. but Harris and Bush are awful.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



I wonder 93z, which type of player do you think is best suited for zone?

Personally, I think the best type of DBs for zone are the beastly athletic players, who have a good knowledge of offensive formations and motions.

Woodson fits the bill completely, he is super athletic but also extremely smart (in a football sense).

Other athletic DBs include Blackmon, Bush, and Collins. All three are great athletes, but the problem is they can't recognize and diagnose offensive sets. Basically they have the talent physically to excel in zone, but when it comes to pre-snap recognition, they are totally clueless.

Hence why we struggle so much at zone coverage, our DBs react too late, because they struggle to diagnose the pre-snap formations of the Offense.

Harris as you said doesn't have the style to pull off playing zone effectively, but I'm wondering if Tramon might fit the bill. Might be something to look at with a new DC, if he can help our DBs get better at pre-snap recognition.

"pack93z" wrote:



Agreed.. you nailed the profile.. you have to have very disciplined corners to play zone.. they have to be able to read the play as it is developing and break correctly.. in man.. your responsibilities are lessened mentally.. you have you man..

Blackmon hasn't shown the awareness on the field that I would like.. you can see that in punter returns.. he makes some questionable reads and decisions.. in zone.. you are toast if you make a wrong break.

Lee is very physical from what I seen in camp.. has great short area quickness and could develop into a nice blended corner..

Bush.. I don't know what happened to this kid.. he went from a developing player and kind of fell off.. has the physical tools.. just not clicking upstairs I think.

Williams.. I think he is a fine players.. he has the physical set you are looking for in a zone corner IMO.. just haven't seen him really play in space.. seems very instinctive.. I think Woodson has taken this kid under his wing.. watch how he plays.. becoming a clone.

Woodson would become a fine coach when it is said and done in my opinion.. listen to Collins speak about it..

Back to Moss.. waiting word... hope his visit goes well.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
all_about_da_packers
16 years ago

Cool. Good info, thanks. Doesn't change my mind, though - we need to do work on our D line in any case.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:



Totally agree.


More importantly, guys like Johnson seem (I'm not going to pretend I've done extensive study on this, at least not yet) to be far more able to adjust to game situations than our staff.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:



I think it's important to point out that the best DCs in football: Jim Johnson, Dick LeBeau, Monte Kiffin are all 70 years old (give or take a couple of years).

I agree, they seem far more prepared to make effective adjustments, but I wonder if its because they've had a chance to pretty much see it all, thus having an effective counter.

That's not to say those three are so good because of just their experience, they've built some great units with less than stellar talent, but I think it's fair to say they are able to make more effective in-game adjustments because they are so experienced, they can liken any new formations to other previously seen, and go about exposing the weak points.
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ILikeThePackers39
16 years ago

Cool. Good info, thanks. Doesn't change my mind, though - we need to do work on our D line in any case.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Totally agree.


More importantly, guys like Johnson seem (I'm not going to pretend I've done extensive study on this, at least not yet) to be far more able to adjust to game situations than our staff.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:



I think it's important to point out that the best DCs in football: Jim Johnson, Dick LeBeau, Monte Kiffin are all 70 years old (give or take a couple of years).

I agree, they seem far more prepared to make effective adjustments, but I wonder if its because they've had a chance to pretty much see it all, thus having an effective counter.

That's not to say those three are so good because of just their experience, they've built some great units with less than stellar talent, but I think it's fair to say they are able to make more effective in-game adjustments because they are so experienced, they can liken any new formations to other previously seen, and go about exposing the weak points.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:




I'd bet the experience has plenty to do with it, no doubt. Then again, Spags seems to react and adjust well - granted, he's a Johnson disciple, but he sure can think on the fly.

I wonder, though; if those schemes are so diverse, wouldn't that lend itself to more ease in adjusting to different situations? Sort of like the flexibility is somewhat baked into the scheme?

Okay, now I'm just starting to think out loud.
blank
Pack93z
16 years ago


I think it's important to point out that the best DCs in football: Jim Johnson, Dick LeBeau, Monte Kiffin are all 70 years old (give or take a couple of years).

I agree, they seem far more prepared to make effective adjustments, but I wonder if its because they've had a chance to pretty much see it all, thus having an effective counter.

That's not to say those three are so good because of just their experience, they've built some great units with less than stellar talent, but I think it's fair to say they are able to make more effective in-game adjustments because they are so experienced, they can liken any new formations to other previously seen, and go about exposing the weak points.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Now we are talking.. playing defense is liken to playing a game of chess.. there is a built in intuition on the DC to make adjustments to what the offense is doing and be varied enough in your looks to keep the offense off balance and tip their hand a bit.

Call whatever scheme you want.. but if you don't have enough variation in the scheme or play lights out.. you are going to get beat in the passing game.. our pass defense wasn't terrible given the lack of pressure..

We didn't generate pressure and failed to play stout and disciplined enough in the run defense..
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
all_about_da_packers
16 years ago

Now we are talking.. playing defense is liken to playing a game of chess.. there is a built in intuition on the DC to make adjustments to what the offense is doing and be varied enough in your looks to keep the offense off balance and tip their hand a bit.

"pack93z" wrote:



So true. Outside of the Packers, I love watching the Ravens simply because you see the chess match playing out on their D. The adjustments they make after they line up, the shifts and all the players moving around is a sight of beauty, so exhilarating.


Call whatever scheme you want.. but if you don't have enough variation in the scheme or play lights out.. you are going to get beat in the passing game.. our pass defense wasn't terrible given the lack of pressure..

"pack93z" wrote:



I think this is the main flaw with this scheme. It isn't overly complex, it is predicated on the idea that we'll keep our stuff simple on D, but execute it to a higher level than the opposing Offense.

Unfortunately, somewhere between weeks 7 and 17 our ability to execute the D went out the window.
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