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beast
Select Member

5 years ago

Beast said Point taken....nevertheless if we’re felt compelled to upgrade the position (other posts notwithstanding) how might we address RG? FA or Draft? Since the consensus here is you should not draft a guard with the first pick (I agree to not take one at 15, I am taking Best OL available at 29) might you start a round 2-3 guy at guard?

Originally Posted by: KRK

Just to be clear, I'll take an OG in the 1st round, it's just that I have to believe they're a potential future NFL Hall of Famer... like I thought of Logan Mankins, Jack Conklin and Quenton Nelson (yes Conklin plays OT, but I thought he could of been the next Steve Hutchinson at OG). So any pick could potentially be an OL, if the OL is the best player left available, and if you really like a specfic player at a certain value, go for it... though I'm against, just drafting need, just to draft the position.

But I believe in getting positional value, and usually the best positional value for interior OL is around the 4th round (say 3rd through 5th)... see Sitton, Lang and Tretter as great examples (also Bak, as a number of people thought he'd be forced to move inside which is why some didn't like him early), as well as the entire Patriots OL, which none were taken with a top 75 pick. Also I found it funny, a guy I know that values the OL like KRK, basically said half of Brady's passes against the Chiefs would of been completed even if he didn't have an OL, because he was getting rid of the ball so quick (an exaggeration, but I found it funny, because I wasn't expecting it, especially not from him).

Between our head coach and offensive coordinator, all these FA OL have played for them within the last four years: Rodger Saffold, Ben Garland, Michael Person, Andy Levitre, Quinton Spain, A.J. Cann, Ereck Flowers, Kevin Pamphile and Patrick Omameh... if they and Gute like any of them (especially for their asking price) then they might be interested in signing them.

It is going to be curious what happens with Kizer...Beast noted; I believe LaFleur coached for a period of time at ND, so he is a semi known quality.

My only beef with Kizer was that he seem to really miss throws, sometimes badly. Only so much of the blame can be "game rust." I like his competitiveness and field presence alot (unlike Huntley). So I will be curious to see what LaFleur first whispers into Gutey's ear....then, if he is around, into Kizer's.

Originally Posted by: KRK

LaFleur was only there Kizer's freshman year, I would think it might be hard to tell too much from a guys first year other than how serious he's diving into it, and work habits, etc.

But yes it will be curious to see if Kizer seems solid with his feet next preseason, or it's still a work in progress, that could change a lot.

sschind
Senior Member

5 years ago

#12

I think it will be easy enough to fix one if not both of of the guard positions in free agency which does give us some options in the draft. I like what beast said about value and I'm not sure the value will be there at #12 for an OL. I'm convinced that the best value at that spot will be EDGE and I am fine with that because it is a big need. I also think it is important to find Bulaga's replacement early (I would keep him around this year) so that means at 30 or 44 you should be looking for a right tackle. The other should be a TE. If they address the tackle position in FA then look for another guard in the draft.

IMO the top three needs are Edge, OL, TE. I hope they sign at least one viable EDGE and OL in FA but I still hope they draft one of each on day one or two.

beast
Select Member

5 years ago

#13

I'm not sure the value will be there at #12 for an OL. I'm convinced that the best value at that spot will be EDGE and I am fine with that because it is a big need.

Originally Posted by: sschind

I also think it is important to find Bulaga's replacement early (I would keep him around this year) so that means at 30 or 44 you should be looking for a right tackle. The other should be a TE. If they address the tackle position in FA then look for another guard in the draft.

IMO the top three needs are Edge, OL, TE. I hope they sign at least one viable EDGE and OL in FA but I still hope they draft one of each on day one or two.

Originally Posted by: sschind

I think Safety is a HUGE need as well (especially FS), because this defense is about being able to high risk coverage and right now we just have soon to be 36 year old Tramon Williams... and that's about it at Safety, and Williams is in a contract year just like Bulaga.

Got to watch DL as well since both Daniels and Lowry will be in contact years also.

So my top would be a tie with Edge and FS, followed by OL, then DL and TE rounding it out.

nerdmann
Premier Member

5 years ago

#14

Yeah this year is a bit odd with the elite players (say top 20) seemingly being more defense than offensive especially on the line front.

Where the Edge and DT seems very strong and OL fairly weak. So for the #12 spot I wouldn't be surprised if it was defensive front Edge, DT or DB.

I think Safety is a HUGE need as well (especially FS), because this defense is about being able to high risk coverage and right now we just have soon to be 36 year old Tramon Williams... and that's about it at Safety, and Williams is in a contract year just like Bulaga.

Got to watch DL as well since both Daniels and Lowry will be in contact years also.

So my top would be a tie with Edge and FS, followed by OL, then DL and TE rounding it out.

Originally Posted by: beast

Tramon is under contract for next year, isn't he? We've also got Josh Jones. Be nice to upgrade the position, tho. First we need Edge.

“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”

beast
Select Member

5 years ago

#15

Tramon is under contract for next year, isn't he? We've also got Josh Jones. Be nice to upgrade the position, tho. First we need Edge.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann

Williams, Daniels and Bulaga are signed for next year, but that's the last year on their current contract... but Safety is said to be the hardest defensive position to master the mental side of the game, wouldn't if be nice for a rookie to learn from Williams?

From what Josh Jones has shown so far, he's more of a coverage ILBer than a Safety. He didn't get on the field much until Haha traded, Whitehead released and Brice and maybe Greene injured. Everyone is hoping Jones develops, but so far he hasn't... maybe he'll have a break out 3rd or 4th year, but I sure don't want to put all my eggs in that one basket.

And while we certainly need edge help, Pettine showed he knows how to help the edge with lots of smart blitzing, but it's based on coverage being able to hold up, including the Safeties. It's easier to help the edge guys than it is to help the DBs when scheming. That's why I have them as equals even though on paper, edge needs more help, because the scheming.

Also for a 6th need, need another CB as King nor Alexander have been able to stay completely healthy for a full season. Though Jackson could potentially develop, still always nice to have more depth at CB.

KRK
Veteran Member Topic Starter

5 years ago

#16

Jones doesnt seem to get it...at this point, a depth guy at best.

Jackson seems to me to be a safety. Opposing QBs picked on him like a vultures pick on a rotting carcass last year at CB. Doesnt have the burst IMO. Nevertheless, he seems to have a reasonably good ball skills.

Finally, as long as I am picking on younger talent, I was extremely disappointed Burks could earn more reps at LB. He is bright guy so I am guessing he doesnt have the talent.

So depending on ones evaluation of Jackson and Jones, that somewhat determines how much of a priority safety is.

In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK

beast
Select Member

5 years ago

#17

Originally Posted by: KRK

I've been thinking Jones could start as a coverage ILB and they were doing that some after they released Whitehead, using Jones in the dime role.

Jackson and Burks were clearly high potential but extremely raw prospect, better athletes than football players who IMO, had no chance of doing too much as rookies. (Gute clearly targeted more athletic people, so might be able to use athletic scores to figure out who he might be looking at more).

Jackson needs to learn man coverage and bump and run (which even took experts like Al Harris and Tramon Williams muliple years to learn, so I don't think anyone should give up after a single season)... but Jackson was great while playing zone coverage full-time college, but has the physical tool set for man coverage, he just needs a lot of little things.

And Burks had no muscle and physical part of his game, which you need at LB, to be perfectly honest Jones would of been better at ILB and Burks better at Safety (at least as a rookie), but hopefully Burks can put some muscle on (which is much easier to coach than learning to cover, but it's kinda surprising he doesn't have more already, so he might not like lighting weights), but if Burks gets more muscle and learns to be a bit more physical he might be very good (and I said that about Fackrell too, but had less hope for Fackrell because he struggles so much with bull rush and plays a more physical position)

I've thought Jackson and Burks probably aren't going to be fully developed until year 3 at earliest, though hopefully they can surprise and be ready for year 2.

KRK
Veteran Member Topic Starter

5 years ago

#18

Beast observed:

...Jackson was great while playing zone coverage full-time college, but has the physical tool set for man coverage, he just needs a lot of little things.

I guess I’m not seeing it.

I hope you are right, but albeit in limited action, I’m seeing neither the quick reaction twitch nor closing speed necessary at corner. I think he has “ready, set, go” speed, but that isnt enough.

A guy with great zone skills generally is a good safety.

I hope I’m wrong.

In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK

beast
Select Member

5 years ago

#19

Beast observed:I guess I’m not seeing it.

I hope you are right, but albeit in limited action, I’m seeing neither the quick reaction twitch nor closing speed necessary at corner. I think he has “ready, set, go” speed, but that isnt enough.

A guy with great zone skills generally is a good safety.

I hope I’m wrong.

Originally Posted by: KRK

That's why I talked about the bump and run coverage... you don't need the closing speed if you're already all over him, and he showed ball skill in college in preseason. Al Harris and a lot of the other bump and run guys don't have the quick reaction twitch or closing speed burst either... but if they can smartly get their hands on you, they can control you a bit.

Yes his tool set could be good at Safety too, but then he'd have to learn to tackle like a Safety, when he's still learning to tackle like a CB... and Safety position has the most to mentally learn... which Jackson is already behind only being a one year starter in college. It could happen, but either position is gonna take a good bit of time.

As Mike McCarthy said, put them at the harder position and see if they have the stuff for there (So OT > OG and CB > S) and if they don't, then move them... that's why didn't didn't start Bak and Lang off on the inside (despite lots of people saying they're inside guys), but Bak proved he can play outside at OT. And I still think Lang might of been able to play RT with some chip blocking help, but as he noted, he wasn't taking football fully serious until three things happened, including Sitton (his best friend) telling him he needs to step it up with a chance to compete for a starting spot, had his first child (and one more that I have forgotten).

But if Jackson doesn't develop, you very well could be right, that Safety might of been a smarter spot for him... and it'll be interesting to see... if the Packers don't sign/draft a Safety, if they move Jackson there, especially if they do grab/draft a CB... it might happen still.

earthquake
Member

5 years ago

#20

I feel like if they can resign Breeland they should look fairly good at CB. That's 3 starter level guys (King, Alexander, Breeland), though all 3 with injury concerns so maybe they'll be lucky to get 2 player's worth of games out of the 3. Then a few developmental guys like Jackson and the UDFA, Tony brown. There's Natrell Jamerson currently on the roster too, he was a 5th round pick in 2018, don't know anything about him. + Maybe another draft pick, UDFA guys or a depth level FA signing and corner could be a strength going into training camp.

Safety looks pretty horrid at the moment though. Williams will probably work in a pinch for another year but realistically they need two starters there.

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