Barfarn
9 years ago

Actually, I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th. The lack of speed.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a play. Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a better football player. Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle. There respective value: a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first? Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster? I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic? Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB. Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time. But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.

Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!
9 years ago

Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a play. Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a better football player. Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle. There respective value: a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first? Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster? I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic? Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB. Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time. But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.

Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 




I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.
Barfarn
9 years ago

I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.

Originally Posted by: FLORIDA PACKER88 



Bama game [Lee was a RS fresh in that game]?

Lee looks faster in pads; but dont see the difference as "incredible." If we look at 4.47 to 4.71 [that's .24 seconds over 40 yards] at combine in underwear, that gap closes with pads. The timed gap is further closed with Martinez looking more fluid in pads [This is also represented by his 4.2 and 6.98 in shuttle and cone to Lee's 4.2 and 7.12].

And yes, in Bama game Lee had 2 sacks and another TFL, pretty good; but that is 3 plays. What did he do the other 60-70 plays? Note: no one blocked Lee on 1 sack and he benefited on a coverage sack for 2nd [because OSU plays with 11 studs on D]. Lee had one pressure and made a few other nice plays. But…

At 9:53 1Q. Lee comes to LOS on left probably with outside contain and should flow to the ball always maintain leverage to the backside. But he chases ball carrier running right, realizing too late the ball was faked and QB runs up middle past him.

9:33 1Q, QB hands off ball to Henry who goes right. QB fake sprints out left and Lee again bites, taking a false step preventing from recovering and chasing down Henry who ran for a 25 yard TD.

5:11 1Q- ball is faked to full back up middle, Lee takes a false step inside and pitch goes to RB who runs outside. Lee uses his speed to recover and avoid a WR block to get outside allowing him only to get a shoe string tackle. But he goes high on Henry who just swats him away like a mosquito. [Note Lee was a missed-tackling machine, OSU stats show 22 in 2 years].

This is 3 consecutive athletic plays of a bad football player.

This last play is the perfect example of which I speak. Martinez probably doesn’t take the false step inside and beats Lee to Henry outside. Maybe Martinez doesn’t make tackle either, Henry is pretty good, but he at least is in better position and slows him down more.

Lee’s lesser awareness of the ball and taking more false steps makes Martinez the guy who gets to ball carrier first, notwithstanding that in skivvies from a track start Lee USUALLY [not always] times faster.
nerdmann
9 years ago
Randall and Rollins didn't have the best timed speeds last year as DBs. But they're ball hawks. They know how to play the ball in the air, and they know how to make a play on it.

I heard PFF rated Martinez at the top of college football in coverage.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Yerko
9 years ago

Actually, I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th. The lack of speed.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
9 years ago

Wade- I haven't seen your board

Originally Posted by: Yerko 


Here is Wade's board ...
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
9 years ago

Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.

Originally Posted by: Yerko 



Most people are with you. I guess what I saw (and Kevin will be quick to point out that I haven't seen much) disagreed with the PFF grade. But, as many have pointed out, none of the GMs picked Billings at DT until well into the fourth round, and I had him being worth a trade up of 5-10 positions by the Packers in round 1.

In short, I don't know much.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
9 years ago

Here is Wade's board ...
UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
mi_keys
9 years ago

Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Well, here's to hoping you're as wrong about Martinez as you were Collins and that you're just as right about every other pick. Will be one hell of a draft then. [cheers]
Born and bred a cheesehead
Zero2Cool
9 years ago

Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



My board would simply be 🤷 lol


I lost my ambition to complain when Greg Jennings was taken over Chad Jackson and witnessing who was wrong (me) and who was right (Packers). It was clear I can't trust ESPN or anything I read about players. Simply not worth getting worked up about. I'm just not one of the grades before pads kinda fellas.
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
dfosterf (1h) : Doubs, Savion Williams, LVN, Musgrave all banged up to one degree or another, missing one here I forget
Zero2Cool (3h) : RB Tyrion Davis-Price is signing with the Green Bay Packers.
Zero2Cool (3h) : zero help, dominated. preseason
beast (4h) : QB Jordan Love has surgery
beast (4h) : Martha said Morgan had a lot of help, I didn't watch the OL so I can't say.
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Packers LT Jordan Morgan did not allow a single pressure across 23 pass-blocking snaps vs. Jets last night, per PFF
Mucky Tundra (10-Aug) : With buckeye and the reasonable couple, we're currently sitting at 10
buckeyepackfan (10-Aug) : Just posted to re-up on our FFL.
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : If healthy after, then thats all I care. Well, no drops would be nice
wpr (10-Aug) : I made it through the 1st Q.
dfosterf (10-Aug) : Just gotta figure out how.
dfosterf (10-Aug) : Could have been a worse start, so there is that.
beast (10-Aug) : Yeah, someone tell the Packers football season has started, seems like they weren't ready for it
Mucky Tundra (10-Aug) : Sooooooo many penalties
Mucky Tundra (10-Aug) : It may only be preseason, but this game is a trip to the dentist
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Packers do bad -- FREAK OUT!!!!!!
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Packers do good -- eh only preseason
dfosterf (10-Aug) : Well that half was fun
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Great, zayne is down
Zero2Cool (9-Aug) : 13 minutes away from kickkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkoffff
Zero2Cool (9-Aug) : Had Celebration of Life for my uncle up north. wicked rain hope it dont come south
Mucky Tundra (9-Aug) : THE GREEN BAY PACKERS ARE PLAYING FOOTBALL TONIGHT!!!!!! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!!!!
Zero2Cool (9-Aug) : Woo-hoo
TheKanataThrilla (9-Aug) : NFL Network is broadcasting the game tonight, but not in Canada. Not sure why as no local television is showing the game.
beast (8-Aug) : But the Return from IR designations had to be applied by the 53 man cutdown.
beast (8-Aug) : It's a new rule, so it's not clear, but my understanding was that they could be IR'd at any time
Mucky Tundra (8-Aug) : *had to be IRed at 53
Mucky Tundra (8-Aug) : beast, I thought the designate return from IR players had to be IR at cutdowns to 53, not before
beast (8-Aug) : It's a brand new rule, either last season or this season, prior, all pre-season IRs were done for the season
beast (8-Aug) : But the Packers would have to use one for their return from IR spots on him, when they cut down to 53.
beast (8-Aug) : I think the NFL recently changed the IR rules, so maybe the season might not be over for OL Glover.
Zero2Cool (8-Aug) : Packers star Howton, first NFLPA prez, dies at 95 😔
dfosterf (8-Aug) : Apparently it is too complicated for several to follow your simple instructions, but I digress
dfosterf (8-Aug) : Zero- Did you see what I posted about Voice of Reason and his wife? She posted over at fleaflicker that they are both "In"
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : Well, not crazy, it makes sense. Crazy I didn't notice/find it earlier
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : it's crazy how one stored procedure to get data bogged everything down for speed here
dfosterf (7-Aug) : to herd cats or goldfish without a bowl. They reminded me of the annual assembly of our fantasy league
dfosterf (7-Aug) : out on a field trip, outfitting them with little yellow smocks. Most of the little folk were well behaved, but several were like trying
dfosterf (7-Aug) : Yesterday my wife and I spent the afternoon on the waterfront here in Alexandria, Va. A daycare company took about 15 three/four year olds
wpr (7-Aug) : seems faster. yay
dfosterf (7-Aug) : Wife of reason posted on the in/out thread on fleaflicker that both she and vor are in
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : This page was generated in 0.135 seconds.
Mucky Tundra (7-Aug) : Tbh, I can never tell the difference in speed unless it's completely shitting the bed
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : Sure does feel like site is more snappy
Zero2Cool (6-Aug) : I thought that was the Lions OL
Mucky Tundra (6-Aug) : Travis Glover placed on IR; seasons over for him
Zero2Cool (6-Aug) : found bad sql in database, maybe site faster now?
dfosterf (5-Aug) : I'm going to call that a good move.
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : Packers sign CB Corey Ballentine
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : I'm not sure how to kill the draft order just yet so it's not so confusing.
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
29m / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

4h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

4h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

4h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

8h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

9h / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

22h / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

11-Aug / Around The NFL / Martha Careful

11-Aug / Around The NFL / packerfanoutwest

10-Aug / Fantasy Sports Talk / buckeyepackfan

10-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

10-Aug / Around The NFL / Mucky Tundra

10-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

8-Aug / Around The NFL / Zero2Cool

8-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.