Barfarn
8 years ago

Actually, I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th. The lack of speed.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a play. Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a better football player. Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle. There respective value: a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first? Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster? I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic? Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB. Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time. But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.

Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!
8 years ago

Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a play. Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a better football player. Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle. There respective value: a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first? Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster? I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic? Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB. Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time. But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.

Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 




I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.
Barfarn
8 years ago

I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.

Originally Posted by: FLORIDA PACKER88 



Bama game [Lee was a RS fresh in that game]?

Lee looks faster in pads; but dont see the difference as "incredible." If we look at 4.47 to 4.71 [that's .24 seconds over 40 yards] at combine in underwear, that gap closes with pads. The timed gap is further closed with Martinez looking more fluid in pads [This is also represented by his 4.2 and 6.98 in shuttle and cone to Lee's 4.2 and 7.12].

And yes, in Bama game Lee had 2 sacks and another TFL, pretty good; but that is 3 plays. What did he do the other 60-70 plays? Note: no one blocked Lee on 1 sack and he benefited on a coverage sack for 2nd [because OSU plays with 11 studs on D]. Lee had one pressure and made a few other nice plays. But…

At 9:53 1Q. Lee comes to LOS on left probably with outside contain and should flow to the ball always maintain leverage to the backside. But he chases ball carrier running right, realizing too late the ball was faked and QB runs up middle past him.

9:33 1Q, QB hands off ball to Henry who goes right. QB fake sprints out left and Lee again bites, taking a false step preventing from recovering and chasing down Henry who ran for a 25 yard TD.

5:11 1Q- ball is faked to full back up middle, Lee takes a false step inside and pitch goes to RB who runs outside. Lee uses his speed to recover and avoid a WR block to get outside allowing him only to get a shoe string tackle. But he goes high on Henry who just swats him away like a mosquito. [Note Lee was a missed-tackling machine, OSU stats show 22 in 2 years].

This is 3 consecutive athletic plays of a bad football player.

This last play is the perfect example of which I speak. Martinez probably doesn’t take the false step inside and beats Lee to Henry outside. Maybe Martinez doesn’t make tackle either, Henry is pretty good, but he at least is in better position and slows him down more.

Lee’s lesser awareness of the ball and taking more false steps makes Martinez the guy who gets to ball carrier first, notwithstanding that in skivvies from a track start Lee USUALLY [not always] times faster.
nerdmann
8 years ago
Randall and Rollins didn't have the best timed speeds last year as DBs. But they're ball hawks. They know how to play the ball in the air, and they know how to make a play on it.

I heard PFF rated Martinez at the top of college football in coverage.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Yerko
8 years ago

Actually, I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th. The lack of speed.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
8 years ago

Wade- I haven't seen your board

Originally Posted by: Yerko 


Here is Wade's board ...
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
8 years ago

Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.

Originally Posted by: Yerko 



Most people are with you. I guess what I saw (and Kevin will be quick to point out that I haven't seen much) disagreed with the PFF grade. But, as many have pointed out, none of the GMs picked Billings at DT until well into the fourth round, and I had him being worth a trade up of 5-10 positions by the Packers in round 1.

In short, I don't know much.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
8 years ago

Here is Wade's board ...
UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
mi_keys
8 years ago

Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Well, here's to hoping you're as wrong about Martinez as you were Collins and that you're just as right about every other pick. Will be one hell of a draft then. [cheers]
Born and bred a cheesehead
Zero2Cool
8 years ago

Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well. Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?

I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time. Really missed on that one.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



My board would simply be 🤷 lol


I lost my ambition to complain when Greg Jennings was taken over Chad Jackson and witnessing who was wrong (me) and who was right (Packers). It was clear I can't trust ESPN or anything I read about players. Simply not worth getting worked up about. I'm just not one of the grades before pads kinda fellas.
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
TheKanataThrilla (14m) : Exactly buck...Washington came up with the ball. It is just a shitty coincidence one week later
buckeyepackfan (15m) : I forgot, they corrected the call a week later. Lol btw HAPPY BIRTHDAY dhazer!
buckeyepackfan (17m) : That brings up the question, why wasn't Nixon down by contact? I think that was the point Kanata was making.
buckeyepackfan (23m) : Turnovers rule, win the turnover battle, win the game.
packerfanoutwest (23m) : well, he was
TheKanataThrilla (28m) : Eagles down by contact on the fumble....fuck you NFL
Mucky Tundra (50m) : I think this games over
beast (1h) : Eagles sure get a lot of fumbles on kickoffs
Mucky Tundra (1h) : This game looks too big for Washington
packerfanoutwest (5h) : that being said, The Ravens are the Browns
packerfanoutwest (5h) : Browns, Dolphins have longest AFC Championship droughts
packerfanoutwest (5h) : As of today, Cowboys have longest NFC Championship drought,
beast (15h) : Someone pointed out, with Raiders hiring Carroll, the division games between Carroll and Jim Harbaugh are back on (who can whine more games)
beast (21h) : I'm confused, Pete Carroll and Brian Schottenheimer? When Todd Monken, Joe Brady, Kellen Moore, Kliff Kingsbury and Zac Robinson are availab
Zero2Cool (23h) : Any reason I'm catching a shot here about my intelligence?
Martha Careful (25-Jan) : thank you Mucky for sticking up for me
Martha Careful (25-Jan) : some of those people are smarter than you zero. However Pete Carroll is not
Mucky Tundra (24-Jan) : Rude!
beast (24-Jan) : Martha? 😋
Zero2Cool (24-Jan) : Raiders hired someone from the elderly home.
dfosterf (24-Jan) : I'm going with a combination of the two.
beast (24-Jan) : Either the Cowboys have no idea what they're doing, or they're targeting their former OC, currently the Eagles OC
Zero2Cool (23-Jan) : Fake news. Cowboys say no
Zero2Cool (23-Jan) : Mystery candidate in the Cowboys head coaching search believed to be Packers ST Coordinator Rich Bisaccia.
beast (23-Jan) : Also why do both NYC teams have absolutely horrible OL for over a decade?
beast (23-Jan) : I wonder why the Jets always hire defensive coaches to be head coach
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Still HC positions available out there. I wonder if Hafley pops up for one
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Trent Baalke is out as the Jaguars GM.
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Jeff Hafley would have been a better choice, fortunately they don't know that. Someone will figure that out next off season
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Aaron Glenn Planning To Take Jets HC Job
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Martha- C'est mon boulot! 😁
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you
wpr (22-Jan) : Z, glad you are feeling better.
wpr (22-Jan) : My son and D-I-L work for UM. It's a way to pick on them.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you. I rarely get sick, and even more rarely sick to the point I can't work.
wpr (22-Jan) : Beast- back to yesterday, I CAN say OSU your have been Michigan IF the odds of making the playoffs were more urgent.
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : I've been near death ill last several days, finally feel less dead and site issues.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : It is a big deal. This host is having issues. It's frustrating.
Martha Careful (22-Jan) : just kidding...it was down
Martha Careful (22-Jan) : you were blocked yesterday, due to a a recalcitrant demeanor yesterday in the penalty box for a recalcitrant demeanor
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Was that site shutdown on your end or mine? No big deal, just curious
beast (21-Jan) : That way teams like Indiana and SMU don't make the conference championships by simply avoiding all the other good teams in their own confere
beast (21-Jan) : Also, with these "Super Conferences" instead of a single conference champion, have 4 teams make a Conference playoffs.
beast (21-Jan) : Also in college football, is a bye week a good or bad thing?
Martha Careful (21-Jan) : The tournament format was fine. Seeding could use some work.
beast (21-Jan) : You can't assume Ohio State would of won the Michigan game...
beast (21-Jan) : Rankings were 1) Oregon 2) Georgia 3) Texas 4) Penn State 5) Notre Dame 6) Ohio State, none of the rest mattered
wpr (21-Jan) : Texas, ND and OSU would have been fighting for the final 2 slots.
wpr (21-Jan) : Oregon and Georgia were locks. Without the luxury of extra playoff berths, Ohios St would have been more focused on Michigan game.
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 3:25 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 12 @ 3:30 PM
Eagles
Recent Topics
26m / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

4h / Green Bay Packers Talk / hardrocker950

23h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

25-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

25-Jan / Random Babble / Martha Careful

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

19-Jan / Random Babble / Martha Careful

18-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

17-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

17-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

17-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

16-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.