Bigbyfan
9 years ago

First, this is another strawman! The issue raised was Rolle was kept over a lesser equally paid ONLY because of his draft status. But, Sherrod wasn’t kept due to his draft status; he was kept for cap and [1st rnd] potential reasons. Another name for the GM that keeps the worse player only because of draft status is unemployed.

Second, Rolle stunk w/ HTN. INTs are not an important stat for a CB; often it’s a negative indicator of performance. The perfect CB is 100% statless; because coverage is so tight, no one even throws his way. Rolle played 4 games, 9-12, got 3 picks and then is benched the last 4 games. BENCHED! He wasn't even allowed to play in dime w/ Andre Hal out [a guy clearly ahead of him on D. Chart]. QB passer rating v. Rolle was 90; which is unbelievable high w/ 3INTs in so few snaps. When Rolle didn’t intercept, QBs had 147.5 rating throwing his way. And the QBs that Rolle was trying to get enshrined in Canton were Sanchez, Hoyer, Dalton and Mettenbeger/Locker. Fact is Rolle stunk against some pretty bad QBs and that is why he was BENCHED and why today Rolle sits #7 on the Texans CB depth chart. Unless multiple injuries occur or he becomes Htn's Jerrat Bush, Rolle will be cut.

If Ted Thompson wants Rolle back he can get him for a 7th in a heartbeat; but Ted Thompson won’t give up a pick for Rolle because he’ll be available when he’s cut.

Third, if you watch the film and compare Rolle to Goodson you’ll see Goodson is simply better at mirroring receivers; this is the most critical CB skill. In the 3rd PS game both Rolle and Goodson got 1 target v. James Jones. Both played press man: JJ separated 3 yards from Rolle on a slant for 9 yards; JJ got no separation from Goodson 25 yards downfield and Goodson knocked the ball away. Goodson had trouble dealing with push offs and locating the ball in the air; but those skills can easily be developed. The CB’s ability to mirror a WR’s movements is largely dependent on qualities/skills that cant be coached.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



This might be my favorite post on this site in a long time. You obviously do your homework before posting.

Hard to argue with that evidence.
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Barfarn
9 years ago

Demetri Goodson being retained because of his draft status? Goodson being a flop and not having as good a career as Jumal Rolle? Maybe ........ Could Be. I'm optimistic enough to think it might not be that way also. We'll See, I guess.

Just as a technicality, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't retaining Goodson and letting Rolle go be more a McCarthy decision than a Ted Thompson one?

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



Great question Texas!

The company line is Ted Thompson makes personnel decisions; and its the scouts/front office staff that primarily evaluate a guy's upside for skill; ability to gain size; character/attitude issues that affect w/ taking coaching or lockerroom harmony; etc. Of course, a huge part of that scouting evaluation is based input from head, special teams and position coaches. I'd guess in most cases if the coaches feel strongly that will weigh 90+% of the GM's decision.
uffda udfa
9 years ago

First, this is another strawman! The issue raised was Rolle was kept over a lesser equally paid ONLY because of his draft status. But, Sherrod wasn’t kept due to his draft status; he was kept for cap and [1st rnd] potential reasons. Another name for the GM that keeps the worse player only because of draft status is unemployed.

Second, Rolle stunk w/ HTN. INTs are not an important stat for a CB; often it’s a negative indicator of performance. The perfect CB is 100% statless; because coverage is so tight, no one even throws his way. Rolle played 4 games, 9-12, got 3 picks and then is benched the last 4 games. BENCHED! He wasn't even allowed to play in dime w/ Andre Hal out [a guy clearly ahead of him on D. Chart]. QB passer rating v. Rolle was 90; which is unbelievable high w/ 3INTs in so few snaps. When Rolle didn’t intercept, QBs had 147.5 rating throwing his way. And the QBs that Rolle was trying to get enshrined in Canton were Sanchez, Hoyer, Dalton and Mettenbeger/Locker. Fact is Rolle stunk against some pretty bad QBs and that is why he was BENCHED and why today Rolle sits #7 on the Texans CB depth chart. Unless multiple injuries occur or he becomes Htn's Jerrat Bush, Rolle will be cut.

If Ted Thompson wants Rolle back he can get him for a 7th in a heartbeat; but Ted Thompson won’t give up a pick for Rolle because he’ll be available when he’s cut.

Third, if you watch the film and compare Rolle to Goodson you’ll see Goodson is simply better at mirroring receivers; this is the most critical CB skill. In the 3rd PS game both Rolle and Goodson got 1 target v. James Jones. Both played press man: JJ separated 3 yards from Rolle on a slant for 9 yards; JJ got no separation from Goodson 25 yards downfield and Goodson knocked the ball away. Goodson had trouble dealing with push offs and locating the ball in the air; but those skills can easily be developed. The CB’s ability to mirror a WR’s movements is largely dependent on qualities/skills that cant be coached.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



Hmmm. I watched Goodson vs. Rolle last preseason and thought Rolle clearly outplayed Goodson. I think Steve did as well if memory serves. We had a topic on that after he was cut in favor of Goodson.

This is from espnWISCONSIN.com:

“There’s always some regret,” Thompson confessed Monday during a break in the annual NFL Meetings at the Arizona Biltmore hotel. “I’m a hoarder of players. I like to keep them all. He’s one of those guys we would have liked to have kept as well.”

The problem, of course, is that the Packers had multiple chances to keep Rolle, who wound up playing 10 games for the Houston Texans and recording three interception, four pass breakups and 19 tackles. According to Pro Football Focus, Rolle played 209 snaps for the Texans last season and was targeted 23 times, allowing 16 completions for 229 yards and two touchdowns with his three INTs for an opponent passer rating of 90.9.

He was benched the last 4 games? He was a fill in first off the bench type anyway and... That's really odd considering he had stats in Week 16. He was mostly a special teamer anyway.

4 9:17 2 7 RAV 27 Joe Flacco pass complete short left to Justin Forsett for 2 yards (tackle by Jumal Rolle)

I happened to like Jumal Rolle over Goodson last preseason...that is what I saw with my own eyes. Of course, I don't see them everyday in practice. It's just very very very odd you believe that being drafted carries no weight over a guy like Rolle who was a guy just trying to get a job after being with another team. The investment was so little in Rolle vs. investing a draft pick in Goodson but that didn't play any role in the decision making? C'mon, man.

Let's hope Joe Whitt doesn't turn out to be prophetic while Goodson totally flops... (from same article quoted above)

Cornerbacks coach Joe Whitt, who’d likened Rolle to Shields in terms of his raw talent and room for growth during the 2013 season, was extremely disappointed to lose Rolle, although he never publicly questioned the decision.
UserPostedImage
Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."


steveishere
9 years ago
Not that being drafted has nothing to do with it but the biggest factor was probably they thought Goodson had more potential. Keep in mind with last years preseason you are comparing a very raw rookie to a 2nd year player and this team hasn't shyed away from bringing in raw CBs that need some work. They probably see Goodson as having a way higher ceiling, when you are looking at your 6th/7th CB you aren't looking for who had a slightly better preseason you are looking at who is going to be better next year or the year after or who is going to be better at ST. If there was a mistake it wasn't with keeping Goodson it was with not re-signing Rolle when we had an open roster spot later in the year. It's really not that big of a deal though since Rolle isn't that good. Even if he was still on this team we'd need a better CB ahead of him whether that ends up being Goodson or someone else.
Zero2Cool
9 years ago

Just as a technicality, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't retaining Goodson and letting Rolle go be more a McCarthy decision than a Ted Thompson one?

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



Ted Thompson has full control over the roster, full control. However, Thompson has said he will never force a player on Mike McCarthy. Regarding defense, I think Dom Capers has a lot of input that he gathers from his position coaches. How it has been explained previously is roster moves are decided collectively, not singular.

I didn't see much of Jumal Rolle to get all enamored over him. I mean, he would have been 5th or 6th CB. Rolle is kind of like Davon House to me. Fans think more of him than he actually produces simply because he hasn't been scorched on game day.

Goodson and Rolle, the question here is which has more potential? That's what the coaches are looking for.
UserPostedImage
buckeyepackfan
9 years ago
I remember most members being surprised that Goods on was kept over Rolle on final cut downs.

In Ted and the coaches eyes, I guess Goodsen showed enough to be kept over Rolle.

I said earlier that neither was going to see the field much on defense, Goodsen did play ST's, again it must have been decided he was just as good as Rolls on ST's.
I am glad Rollevgot a shot to be on a regular roster, that's what every player dreams of.

Could be Rolle will turn out to be better than Goodson, that won't be decided for a few years.

I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!
Barfarn
9 years ago

Hmmm. I watched Goodson vs. Rolle last preseason and thought Rolle clearly outplayed Goodson. I think Steve did as well if memory serves. We had a topic on that after he was cut in favor of Goodson.

This is from espnWISCONSIN.com:

“There’s always some regret,” Thompson confessed Monday during a break in the annual NFL Meetings at the Arizona Biltmore hotel. “I’m a hoarder of players. I like to keep them all. He’s one of those guys we would have liked to have kept as well.”

The problem, of course, is that the Packers had multiple chances to keep Rolle, who wound up playing 10 games for the Houston Texans and recording three interception, four pass breakups and 19 tackles. According to Pro Football Focus, Rolle played 209 snaps for the Texans last season and was targeted 23 times, allowing 16 completions for 229 yards and two touchdowns with his three INTs for an opponent passer rating of 90.9.

He was benched the last 4 games? He was a fill in first off the bench type anyway and... That's really odd considering he had stats in Week 16. He was mostly a special teamer anyway.

4 9:17 2 7 RAV 27 Joe Flacco pass complete short left to Justin Forsett for 2 yards (tackle by Jumal Rolle)

I happened to like Jumal Rolle over Goodson last preseason...that is what I saw with my own eyes. Of course, I don't see them everyday in practice. It's just very very very odd you believe that being drafted carries no weight over a guy like Rolle who was a guy just trying to get a job after being with another team. The investment was so little in Rolle vs. investing a draft pick in Goodson but that didn't play any role in the decision making? C'mon, man.

Let's hope Joe Whitt doesn't turn out to be prophetic while Goodson totally flops... (from same article quoted above)

Cornerbacks coach Joe Whitt, who’d likened Rolle to Shields in terms of his raw talent and room for growth during the 2013 season, was extremely disappointed to lose Rolle, although he never publicly questioned the decision.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Yes benched! In games 9-12 he played 199 snaps. He played 10 snaps in last 4 and was not injured. He played 9 meaningless snaps in last series of Ravens blowout [game 15]; and 1 snap in Game 14. Rolle was not a “fill in off the bench type; ” that describes House and Richardson on 2014 Packers. He was an: “if everyone else can’t play I guess we’ll have to send him in” type. He was not put in any dime packages; special personal packages and if Hal was available Rolle would have had ZERO snaps in last 4 games. Now as Buckeye says he could still improve; but despite 3 INTs, he did not play well for HTN in 2014.

It’s asserted that it’s very very very odd that picks don’t play a role in personnel decisions?...three “ verys”...WOW! Now if 4 “verys” were inserted in the argument it would have been 33% stronger...and I may have just had to capitulate LOL. Ironically, I cant believe anyone would believe such a thing. Ted Thompson is insane if saying, “I got this pick “Fred,” who is a worse player w/ less potential than the SFA/UDFA “joe blow”; but I’m keeping Fred because he’s a pick.” It’s a patently absurd notion that Ted Thompson would do this...ABSURD. This evidences the possession of a negative bias about Ted Thompson that affects judgment of him. Now, of course there may a positive correlation between draft position and perceived talent/potential/cap consequence, etc.; so it may appear the drafted are kept over the undrafted. But it’s talent, potential and cap consequences, yrs of cheap control remaining, etc. that possess a direct causal relationship to roster decisions; where a guy is picked is 100% irrelevant to TT.

Lastly, the article cited was total hack journalism. Its very very very very odd that one going ape on the colloquial use of the word “stellar” in a headline; would cite such drivel.
One trick used by journalist today, is they use propaganda phrases like “in fact” to plant in the mind of the reader that indeed there are facts when none exist; as opposed to just citing the facts. A second is they state their opinion/agenda in advance of a quote, to plant a bias in the readers’s mind, so the reader interprets the quote in the context of the writers’ agenda. To wit, the article states:

“In fact, the Packers veteran general manager admitted Monday that he wishes he’d have kept Rolle, an undrafted free agent who’d spent most of 2013 on the practice squad but was released on the final roster reduction at the end of training camp.”

But, here’s what Thompson actually said: “There’s always some regret,” Thompson confessed...“I’m a hoarder of players. I like to keep them all. He’s one of those guys we would have liked to have kept as well.”

The article announces its opinion/agenda by stating that Ted Thompson “admitted “that he “wishes he’d have kept Rolle” and then describes TT’s statement as a “confession.” But Ted Thompson admitted and confessed nothing about Rolle. Ted Thompson does what he does best: avoids the question. He was asked about Rolle and answers speaking of: ALL players he cut; that there is always regret in cutting all players; that he’d keep all players if he could; and that Rolle is “one of [all of] those guys” that he’d otherwise have kept if no roster limits existed. Ted Thompson said what he always says....NOTHING.

You were TRICKED. The agenda was planted in your mind that Ted Thompson admitted Rolle’s being cut was a mistake. You then used this bias to view TT’s words as a confession, which they were not.
Ted Thompson NEVER comments on personnel decisions like this...NEVER. It’s a no win proposition: If he says “we cut Rolle because he sucks;” he’s being classless; throwing him “under the bus” and Ted Thompson will be reviled by his current players for undermining Rolle’s career. If Ted Thompson says: “we screwed up; should have kept Rolle;” Ted Thompson is throwing his current position group under the bus.
Zero2Cool
9 years ago

Explain Khyri Thornton.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



http://www.packershome.com/Packers/Draft  he was drafted last year as the 85th overall selection out of Southern Miss.

That was easy.
UserPostedImage
Barfarn
9 years ago

Explain Khyri Thornton.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa 



Okay...LOL

Thornton: He didn’t show much in PS and of course missed the season, so hopefully the jury is still out; because if the jury has reached a verdict; it’ll be guilty! We did, however, get some intel on him through the season in the form of a Lions’ player. I never heard of Thornton until he was drafted. But, thinking Ted Thompson would draft a center I studied the top ones and my favorite was Swanson. Today, we know that Swanson played G and C so well for Lions that they canned Riola. Draft break down has a video of Thornton going against Swanson, who we now know is a quality NFL player. In that game Thornton played every bit the part of a 3rd rounder or better. In general KT always played w/ a great motor even though his team lost its first 11 games of his SR season. KT is quick and can shoot gaps w/ the best and has the power to destroy; but he loses focus on technique and awareness is lacking. He too often steps into trap blocks, which a DT w/ 28 starts should never do; he plays patty cake with his arms and hands instead of using then as violent weapons to disengage; like a lot of youngsters he loses focus on technique like keeping those pads low; and he strangely loses tract at times of what’s happening [EG I’ve seen him w/ power and speed bust through a D-Team into backfield like a high 1st rounder and then he’ll just kinda stop like he doesn’t know what to do next]. KT has all the physical tools and a good attitude so coaching could easily make a difference and he has the attitude to accept the coaching. KT’s college coaching is the perfect recipe on how to destroy a kid’s future, not only will a school like S.Miss not attract the best coaches, in KT’s 5 yrs [4 playing, 1 RS] he had 3 HC, 3 DL coaches and 4 DCs. This must be some kinda record for lack of coaching continuity; 4 scheme changes in 5 years is amazing and on top of that 3 different DL coaches teaching different techniques!

The Titans game was representative of his play throughout PS. In that game he looked like a guy first checking for run; then doing a mush rush. Some of this may have been assignment driven; but it’s more likely it’s an indication he was simply lost and not using his physical gifts without thinking. When he did pass rush often he’d dancing back and forth and take studder-steps like he was Walter Payton and some OLman is going to be faked by the “juking.” But, it isn’t like KT did absolutely nothing; he is EXTREMELY quick off the line, often the first guy to move and a year of consistent good coaching could round KT into a good player in 2015.

Notable plays:
In Titans PS game: 3:25 2Q ; 3rd 1; KT pushed C Gabe Ikard [2014 UDFA-Cut and not resigned] 3 yards back; play went outside; KT scrambles to feet and runs back in case play went downfield.

14:16 3rd Q; 2nd 11 , [LDT in 2-4-5] 1st guy to move on DL; blasts past left side of center; play goes to his right C get just enough so he cant get RB.

12:05 3rd Q, 2nd 10; [LDT in 2-4-5] Tenn runs outside to their left; KT pursues from right and T Stingley [Late pick, 3 yr pro, started 4 games] tries to engage KY, who throws Stingley like he was a little kid downfield to continue pursuit.

7:54 3rd Q; 1st 10 [RDE in 3-4] caves in Tenn left side as play goes to Tenn right; 1st round pick Lewan ended up on ground; not sure if KT blasted him or he tried a cut block and missed.

6:06 3rd Q; 1st 10 [LDE in 3-4]; run comes right at him holds his ground against T Stingley and G Olsen [5 yr pro w/4 starts] gets RB by legs w/ Palmer (3 yrd gain)

14:18 4th Q; 1st 10 [LDE in 3-4] Tenn runs at KT, who holds ground against G and T grabs RB low and makes tackle w/ K.Jones for 2 yards.

13:14 4th Q; 2nd 8 [LDE in 2-4-5] KT is again 1st guy to move gets great jump on G [McCray UDFA-twin of packer UDFA] penetrates but cant use this advantage to beat G for a sack or pressure.

12:09 4th Q; 3rd 10 [RDE in 2-4-5] KT chases down a fumble instead of falling on ball he bends over to pick it up and muffs it.
steveishere
9 years ago
Thornton didnt even cost a roster spot. Nobody better or with more potential had to be cut for him to be retained, thats an easy decision
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Zero2Cool (25m) : Merry Christmas!
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beast (17h) : Sounds like no serious injuries from the Saints game and Jacobs and Watson should play in the Vikings game
packerfanoutwest (21h) : both games Watson missed, Packers won
Martha Careful (23h) : I hope all of you have a Merry Christmas!
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Oh I know about Jacobs, I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to mimic Zero lol
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : Jacobs was just sat down, Watson re-injured that knee that kept him out 1 game earlier
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : I needed .14 that's. .14 points for the whole 4th quarter to win and go to the SB. Lol
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Jacobs gonna be OK???
Zero2Cool (24-Dec) : Watson gonna be OK???
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : Inactives tonight for the Pack: Alexander- knee Bullard - ankle Williams - quad Walker -ankle Monk Heath
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : No Jaire, but hopefully the front 7 destroys the line of scrimmage & forces Rattler into a few passes to McKinney.
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : minny could be #1 seed and the Lions #5 seed
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : We'd have same Division and Conference records. Strength of schedule we edge them
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I just checked. What tie breaker?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes its possible but unlikely. If we do get the 5th, we face the NFCS winner
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ahh, ok.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes due to tie breaker
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I mean, unlikely, yes, but mathematically, 5th is possible by what I'm reading.
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : If Vikings lose out, Packers win out, Packers get 5th, right?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : Minny isnt going to lose out so 5th seed is out of the equation. We are playing for the 6th or 7th seed which makes no difference
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, the ad revenue goes to the broadcast company but they gotta pay to air the game on their channel/network
beast (23-Dec) : If we win tonight the game is still relative in terms of 5th, 6th or 7th seed... win and it's 5th or 6th, lose and it's 6th or 7th
beast (23-Dec) : Mucky, I thought the ad revenue went to the broadcasting companies or the NFL, at least not directly
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think the revenue share is moot, isn't it? That's the CBA an Salary Cap handling that.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : i mean game becomes irrelevant if we win tonight. Just a game where we are trying to play spoilers to Vikings chance at the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, I would guess ad revenue from more eyes watching tv
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I would think it would hurt the home team because people would have to cancel last minute maybe? i dunno
beast (23-Dec) : I agree that it's BS for fans planning on going to the game. But how does it bring in more money? I'm guessing indirectly?
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : bs on flexing the game....they do it for the $$league$$, not the hometown fans
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I see what you did there Mucky
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : dammit. 3:25pm
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Packers Vikings flexed to 3:35pm
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Upon receiving the news about Luke Musgrave, I immediately fell to the ground
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Yeah baby!
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : LUKE MUSGRAVE PLAYING TONIGHT~!~~~~WOWHOAAOHAOAA yah
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I wanna kill new QB's ... blitz the crap out of them.
beast (23-Dec) : Barry seemed to get too conservative against new QBs, Hafley doesn't have that issue
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : However, we seem to struggle vs new QB's
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Should be moot point, cuz Packers should win tonight.
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : ok I stand corrected
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ok, yes, you are right. I see that now how they get 7th
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : 5th - Packers win out, Vikings lose out. Maybe?
beast (23-Dec) : Saying no to the 6th lock.
beast (23-Dec) : No, with the Commanders beating the Eagles, Packers could have a good chance of 6th or 7th unless the win out
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think if Packers win, they are locked 6th with chance for 5th.
beast (23-Dec) : But it doesn't matter, as the Packers win surely win one of their remaining games
beast (23-Dec) : This is not complex, just someone doesn't want to believe reality
beast (23-Dec) : We already have told you... if Packers lose all their games (they won't, but if they did), and Buccaneers and Falcons win all theirs
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I posted it in that Packers and 1 seed thread
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