PackFanWithTwins
10 years ago

Even though in principal I agree with the decision just because I think it's near impossible to perform both tasks well, I still worry about the unknown. Whether you like him or not, statistically Mike has done a great job with the offense.

Originally Posted by: musccy 



How much of offensive performance is him and how much is having the best QB and some pretty good WR also. One of the areas I see lacking is in game adjustments. They seem to have good game plans, and come out after halftime with good adjustments. But they don't seem to make them on the fly and I think that is a lot to do with Mike not accurately being able to see what adjustments defenses are making between series.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
beast
10 years ago

I get why people expect this of him, but do you think he'll have an entire team meeting on the sideline? A simple message through the headset to the position coaches to carry on the message would suffice.

Originally Posted by: musccy 



If it's a team problem then you need to address the team... though unless it's a timeout or something you really can't address the whole team, do it in halfs. Offense half and defense half. But you're normally right, just yell at the position coaches to yell at the players, but in the Seattle game maybe more was needed.

I really don't think this move was just due to the Seattle game even if it may have proved to be the catalyst. I also speculate that not knowing about CM3 at the end was more of the final straw than anything else that transpired during the game.

Originally Posted by: musccy 



I agree with the thought, he didn't make this decision based on one game. Though I do wonder if there might be more off the field stuff than we know (like maybe health problems are getting to MM, but I'm hoping that's not the case).

One thought I have had, is that MM wants to step away from the offense and get more involved with the defense and ST some how (though I'm not sure how he'd do that). But with all the special teams errors, he's now going to be very involved in all 3 instead of just mainly one. I think this is what the move really is about. With Tom Clements, Dom Capers, and ST coach (let's say Ron Zook for now) being directly in charge of their group and all under him equally, where as before he let the defense and ST do their own thing more.

Though I still don't get the title switching idea... I mean they really didn't have to switch Clements title, but I guess this gets Edgar Bennett away from the WRs? MM has said Bennett has been heavily involved in their run game planning even though he moved to WR coach.


Mike McCarthy is a good Head Coach. McCarthy is also a good offensive play caller. However, for the same reasons Bob Harlan said he would never have a General Manager and Head Coach be the same person, I think having your HC and Offense or Defense play caller being the HC is equally damaging.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Didn't Harlan leave Sherman as both HC and GM?

I think it can work if you got good people at the other coordinator spots. I know a lot of people dislike him, but I think overall Capers has been pretty good play caller for the most part (still hate the 3 man rushes against good QBs... they sometimes work against bad QBs), but players haven't developed on defense nearly as well. Like Perry still flashes but still disappears as well, a number of the DL haven't turned out too good.

ST is another story, I have no idea what's going on there. But it seems like the Packers can't consistently do well there for some reason.
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beast
10 years ago

But they don't seem to make them on the fly and I think that is a lot to do with Mike not accurately being able to see what adjustments defenses are making between series.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



I thought that's what the OC Tom Clements was suppose to be doing up in the box? Telling Mike what adjustment needed to be done (as up in the box you can see the big picture) and telling people down below what adjustments needed to be done. (same with Capers and his assistant up there).

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Zero2Cool
10 years ago

Didn't Harlan leave Sherman as both HC and GM?

Originally Posted by: beast 


Bob Harlan said "And so I decided to do something that I don’t like to do – give one man both jobs." and also said "I think it was the worst decision I made, quite honestly,"

You can read further about it here. 🙂 (our link was the first one in Google lol)
http://www.packershome.com/forum/posts/m212957-Bob-Harlan-regrets-making-Sherman-GM 
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beast
10 years ago

Bob Harlan said "And so I decided to do something that I don’t like to do – give one man both jobs." and also said "I think it was the worst decision I made, quite honestly,"

You can read further about it here. 🙂 (our link was the first one in Google lol)
http://www.packershome.com/forum/posts/m212957-Bob-Harlan-regrets-making-Sherman-GM 

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



No Thanks, I remember Harlan regretting it... I was just pointing out he didn't always stick with it. Of course it lead to a very bad result (in that Sherman didn't know what he was doing with the cap, draft or defense).


But I think MM has done it pretty well. Just the other spots have to come together and they haven't (especially STs) which is why I'm purely guessing MM is making this move (if these rumors are indeed true). Well that or there is something going on off the field such as wanting more free time to sleep/spend with family or possible health problems (including wide slapping him with a fry pan if he doesn't spend more time with family 🤐 ) :pain10:
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PackFanWithTwins
10 years ago

I thought that's what the OC Tom Clements was suppose to be doing up in the box? Telling Mike what adjustment needed to be done (as up in the box you can see the big picture) and telling people down below what adjustments needed to be done. (same with Capers and his assistant up there).

Originally Posted by: beast 



Well, that is entirely the reason Capers sits up on the booth, so he can get a better picture of what is happening. McCarthy could be interpreting what is being told to him different than Clements had intended. Communicating that isn't as effective as seeing for yourself.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
all_about_da_packers
10 years ago
I, too, like McCarthy as a play caller. However, I was struck by something MM mentioned at the start of this season: someone asked him about appreciating A-Rod after his shoulder injury last season and MM replied that he didn't need to lose Aaron to appreciate him but that some nights he'd be up until early Sunday morning on gameday working on the offensive game plan.

Granted most of that was probably the result of not having Aaron there to make adjustments and frankly make plays that made everyone look better at times than they actually were. But still, I cannot imagine an effective balance being struck when the HC is up until early morning on gameday focusing on the game he is going to call as a play caller.

It'll be interesting to see how Clements is as a play-caller. But given Aaron has so much responsibility at the LOS already, and has to make checks at the line based on what the defense is showing, I can't imagine they'll be a tremendous drop-off. Seems like a sensible move by McCarthy.

Also, one more (possible) positive reason to change titles: give assistance coaches new contracts. I believe any team seeking to interview an assistant coach has to get approval of that coach's team where the coach has more than 1 year left on his contract. If nothing, a new contract should be more than one year, which means the Packers maintain some control over where there coaches can go if other teams come calling.
The NFL: Where Greg Jennings Happens.
warhawk
10 years ago
Change is always risky and I just hope it doesn't backfire. This last year Capers and McCarthy made some changes to the defense and it flopped on them miserably. To the coaches and players credit they were able to fix it but it took about half the regular season to start really getting it together.

Changing the play caller is not as big as a change as this and hopefully it will work out fine. On the plus side MM will be able to concentrate on what's happening on the field with all three phases in real time vs. focusing mainly on calling plays. I think this will help mainly on the offensive side where he can better evaluate what the defense is doing and react. This may lead to making adjustments sooner than we have seen in the past.

My gut says this probably won't change the results a whole lot or what plays we see called. When it works Clements will be a hero and when it doesn't he's an idiot. I remember at times discussions here about certain drives that stalled or failed to produce points only to recall that on the previous drive they went 12 plays or threw a quick strike for a TD and nobody bitched what so ever.

Then it gets down to how will Clements call the last part of a game. Will he be aggressive and attack a defense more so than McCarthy was willing to do? The answer is we don't know. The more complete answer is Clements doesn't even know yet. He may have been saying to himself "man, let's pass the ball and get a 1st down here", or, "lets go for it on 4th and one from the one" BUT, he wasn't calling the plays, and until it's on him, he doesn't actually know what he will do.

We will just have to wait and see. After all, McCarthy has been pumping plays to Rodgers for a long time now and he's handing the reigns over to the top producing offense in the NFL.



"The train is leaving the station."
Zero2Cool
10 years ago
One of the things that worries me when playing a team like the Seahawks is they (in just my opinion here) do film study better than any other team out there. They find things, tendencies and smash you with what they learn. When you have more coaches doing film study, you get more of those nuances discovered and are able to use them. If you have just a defensive coordinator, how can you expect him to know that when the WR has his face forward it's a run, but if he's looking at the ball it's a pass? While also telling your DL that if the Tackle has his heal up he's preparing for pass protection and if the heal is down it's a run?

Those are not real things, just arbitrary examples to drive home a point. If you have more coaches, you have more opportunities to find those nuances and sometimes those little things make a huge difference. Example being, the field goal unit with Brad Jones. That was something I bet the special teams ASSISTANT discovered and brought up and most would say it was the play that swung the game away from the Packers.

So, if the Packers are adding more coaches to the staff, I say bring it on.
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musccy
10 years ago

If you have more coaches, you have more opportunities to find those nuances and sometimes those little things make a huge difference. Example being, the field goal unit with Brad Jones. That was something I bet the special teams ASSISTANT discovered and brought up and most would say it was the play that swung the game away from the Packers.

So, if the Packers are adding more coaches to the staff, I say bring it on.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Didn't we have Ron Zook as a ST assistant/consultant? Shouldn't he have caught our tell, or been able to figure out when the Packers could get pull off a sneak? I get what you're saying and of course 2 mind/ sets of eyes are better than 1 mind/set of eyes, but it's still not a silver bullet.

As for the Seahawks example, I think their speed sideline to sideline also makes a coordinator's job much easier.

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